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How can something that's not chosen be a sin? My orientarion was not chosen. Also why would I be created a male with a homosexual orientarion with a sexual and romantic drive and it be wrong to use it? Not pursuing a relationship won't make me straight but only a lonely gay person. So did god make gay people and then make.being alive itself a sin just because he likes to torture people?
Finally, an intelligent set of questions from "the other side of the fence", which does not contain any semblance of attack. The rest of y'all, take a lesson from Rlarson21.
Here are your answers.
1) It really isn't. I have every reason to believe homosexuality is a chosen orientation and I will back this up later on. (Of course, I can't back it up with scientific fact because there are no scientific facts supporting either side of that argument - "chosen" or "not chosen". That'd be near impossible to prove and thus far it has been impossible. They have found genetic markers that often predispose people to what they call "homosexual desires", but I submit that it's actually something else. Again, more on that later.)
However, there are certain things that everyone has to contend with, which aren't chosen, and when pursued or cultivated are sin. For example, the sex drive. We all have it. There's a right way and many wrong ways to use it. Why do we ever have the desire or tendency to use it in the wrong way? Well, consider this. Let's say you're taking a multiple choice test in school. Would you be proving your knowledge of the subject matter in any way, if the questions each had only one choice - the correct one? No. Instead, there is one correct answer and a few incorrect answers, and the incorrect answers generally look good enough that they can fool someone who doesn't really know the subject matter.
In the same way, life presents us with plenty of opportunity to do the wrong thing, much of which looks mightily attractive at first. There'd be no value in doing the right thing if there were no attractive opportunity to do the wrong thing. I don't like that either but you have to admit, it is logical.
2) You weren't. That's why.
Here's the explanation. If you're old enough to believe that you are homosexual, you're also old enough to have known straight people who look and act gay. I've known quite a few of those. I have a female friend who is 6 feet tall and the only thing feminine about her is her long hair. She walks, talks, cusses, and dresses like a man. Yet, she's as straight as they get.
Do you believe that she deserves love too?
Because if you do, that would require the existence of a man who is most attracted to masculine qualities in a romantic partner.
Society has labeled these people "homosexual". I say that that's been a very damaging label. The so-called "same sex" desires are by design. Since every man and woman needs love, there have to be people who are attracted to every type of man and woman - those who espouse qualities most befitting their own gender and those who espouse qualities most befitting the other gender.
Thus, I submit the following. You claim to be a homosexual man. I say you're a man who is best suited to be matched with what society generally calls a "manly woman". There are many of them out there... even some who have short hair like men. They all need love and there's one of 'em for whom you are the perfect man and she is the perfect woman. (Hey, it can't be disproven. And such a woman needs love too!) The problem is that though there are many such women out there, they are relatively rare in proportion. Let's say that they comprise only 2-3% of the adult female population. That ain't much. However, there are men all over the place... almost all of whom have mostly (if not entirely) masculine traits. If you're looking for such traits, it's ~30 times easier to find them in men than in women. Thus, it's easy enough to see how such men would be fooled into thinking that they actually want a man... when the reality is that a "manly woman" is the best and right way to go.
I know what it's like to have romantic desires that are far from the societal norm. I've always liked big, strong, fat women who are anti-"girly". Some of my romantic desires are more "same sex" in their nature, if we use the term the way modern society would define it. I've never had any attraction to anything commonly called "girly". My wife could hide a yardstick widthwise by sitting on it. She could beat up most men. She likes old cars and can change her own oil. When there are two jobs to be done concurrently - one of them "heavy work" and the other not so much - she will take the "heavy work" job every time as long as she is physically capable of doing so. We're looking at houses right now and her number one consideration as she views house listings is what work she could do on the house (she has done construction before and she likes it). I could keep going but you get the idea. And, to me, she is indescribably sexy. I've never had any desire for the "little woman" who in some way needs a big strong man around... nor the trophy lady who gets primped up every time she goes out... nor a trend-setting woman who wears chic feminine clothes. Perfume makes me sick. Makeup looks disgusting. I find high-heeled shoes both silly and ugly no matter how short you are. I don't care how long a woman goes without shaving her legs. You get the picture? If I put everything on paper, I would probably find that the majority of the "romantic" desires I've always had are better classified as "masculine" than "feminine". So I merely found a woman who is like that. They're out there.
3) No.
God didn't make "gay people" - he made people. People take their straight sexual desires and somehow convince themselves that they aren't straight. Often, that succeeds. You'd be amazed what the power of suggestion can do for a person. It happened to me, that's how I know. Looking back, as an adult, I can see how I have always been attracted to fat women. But for many years, I repressed that desire. The reasons for repression were that my parents strongly dissuaded me from pursuing fat girls (I had to set them straight about that when I was in my 20's), society dissuaded me from pursuing fat girls (a dude gets picked on in school when he goes after fat chicks, and by the time I had emerged from the pigeonhole of being picked on constantly, such that any type of girl would consider dating me, I didn't relish the thought of doing something that'd send me back there), etc. For over 10 years, I pursued women who were not fat... or at least not as fat as I liked. My first three girlfriends had hardly any meat on them at all. I had a crush for many years on a girl who was quite petite. I dated some fat girls during that time period and although deep down they were what I really wanted, I had a compulsion to be embarrassed about dating them. That's what indoctrination can do to a person. I completed my extrication therefrom, in my mid-twenties, and not two weeks later, I met the most beautiful woman my eyes have ever been blessed to see... all 6'3" and 400+ pounds of her. These days, she shares my last name... and I have no problem whatsoever being seen with someone taller than me and twice my weight. Other guys should be so lucky to have a woman they find as beautiful as I find my wife.
Now I understand that homosexuals might try to turn this argument around to attest to why they're gay. It's been done before, and I've heard it all. "I was indoctrinated for years into thinking I had to like women but deep down I always preferred men..." I'm not going to dive into this because it's another issue for another time. The fact that 98% (or at least 90+ percent) of human beings are heterosexual really ought to say something about what is normal and what is not. That other 2-3% (or whatever small amount it is), given its small size and significant deviation from the norm, is "abnormal". Yet, I don't think that that is a condition that the people are stuck with. They choose the abnormality. If they recognize that their "same-sex" desires can be perfectly well satisfied in a relationship with someone of the opposite gender, I guarantee that most would go for it. (That'd be tough to prove, though, because it would require convincing a large proportion of the indoctrinated "homosexual" population to give this an honest try for many years... so as to overcome the indoctrination. That's never easy.)
When it comes to that 2-3%... 2.9% of Americans are either in jail, or on probation or parole. Does that make it "normal" to commit serious crimes? Hey, they have the desire to commit crime... that's why they did it. Many times, such crime is ostensibly "victimless" (such as many situations involving alcohol or drug intoxication). Who are we to say that that's not normal? Do you see the problem here? These people are not criminal by nature - they have certain desires that are being misdirected. People who get that badly intoxicated are actually sad individuals who desire to escape reality. That's the true desire and that's what needs to be addressed. People who commit violent crime, given their violent nature and desires, could do a world of good in a profession where violence is the name of the game (such as urban-area law enforcement, a SWAT team, armed forces, boxing, MMA, football, etc). There is no such thing as a desire that can never be used for good. If a person desires children, sexually, he/she should pursue an adult who looks like a child. Marry a "dwarf". Go to Japan where the culture so highly glorifies looking young that women will go out of their way to look like children in order to be attractive. And if a man desires a man, and even the anal sex that men have to have, marry a manly woman who's into that. The possibilities are endless.
God does not like to torture people. In fact, it's quite the opposite. God likes to bless people. By making us all different, He has provided the best opportunity for that to happen. Let's face it... I was just talking about this with my wife yesterday. I told her that it'd be devastating for me if she had an identical twin who was indistinguishable from her, because then she wouldn't be far and away the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen. But even identical twins, according to most people, are easily distinguished! (The fact that I'm so much of a simp that I can rarely tell the difference is immaterial.) God makes us all different... in our appearances, our romantic desires, our personal natures, you name it. He has set boundaries within which we must all operate. Let's face it... LIFE has boundaries. Look around - you'll see them. There are "rules of the road" when you're driving. All sports have rules. When you get a job, you get a handbook that contains the rules and conditions of your employment. The United States is governed by thousands of laws and rules. Even in nature, in the animal kingdom, there are natural rules and restrictions... violation of which could be fatal, and for which there is often enforcement. Operation within a set of rules and boundaries is the best way to go because outside of that you would have chaos. Can you imagine what disasters would happen if there were no "rules of the road"? Can you imagine all of those maniacs who somehow earned a driver's license, being legally allowed to operate with reckless abandon on the road?!?! Maybe you're a sports fan. Can you imagine football without rules? It'd be complete pandemonium! The first thing our Founding Fathers did, when setting up America, was codify the rules and conditions under which the country would operate. Failure to do so would have been a recipe for disaster. The same must hold true for humankind. Humankind cannot operate optimally without a set of rules within which it must operate.
So here's the deal. Somewhere out there is a "manly woman" who will blow you away... and who, herself, prefers a man of your characteristics and traits. God already knows this. He isn't seeking to torture you... he's seeking to bless you. The cool thing is that you're already closer than you think, to finding that woman.
God has this way of putting you in the path of the person you're supposed to be with, so that y'all can come together. If anyone can attest to this, it's me. I found she who is now my wife in a tiny little corner of the Internet - an obscure personals site for tall people which had maybe only 100 members nationwide. (Contrast that with the millions upon millions of members claimed by the big personals sites like match.com and eHarmony!) We got together, then broke up, and she actually came back into my life a few different times over the years... the final time being after I'd already married "the wrong one" and seen the marriage completely fall apart in spite of my best efforts. Against all odds, she who is now my wife was always there at the right time... without going into detail, it is really shocking how often that happened and how it was timed. God isn't inclined toward being mean like humans can be, but if He were, I could totally see him being like "DUDE.... HERE!!!" (picking up she who is now my wife and shoving her in front of me) "IT'S THIS ONE! PAY ATTENTION!! YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE WITH HER!!! AM I GETTING THROUGH UP THERE?! HEL-LOOOOOOOO!!!! YOU SEE THIS LADY I'M SHOWING YOU?! SHE'S THE ONE FOR YOU!"... etc.
So anyway, the search won't take as long as you imagine. If you're supposed to be with a lady who lives halfway around the world, you'll get there. If you're supposed to be with a lady you once knew who you figure is a lost cause... you two will cross each other's paths again. The list of possibilities goes on and on. God is very anxiously waiting your acceptance of the blessing He has for you. Right now, you might think that you are "homosexual" because of your same-sex type of desires. For a while, my wife thought she was never going to get married because of her physical appearance. Little did she know that it would turn out to be a huge positive, for the right man. In the same way, your desires that seem "same-sex" will turn out to be a huge positive, for the right woman. It never fails. I've never been proven wrong about this. (I should introduce you to my aforementioned masculine female friend.)
That's what's so awesome about God. Above all, God is GOOD.
Last edited by RomaniGypsy; 09-08-2013 at 06:32 AM..
Actually he is, by being made to support something his religion considers sinful, or suffer serious consequences. Again, are we in America or are we in Iran?
This religion of yours doesn't say doing business with gay people is a sin and no aspect of Christian worship is being curtailed by anti-discrimination laws. What you're doing is expressing a personal belief and waving your bible around in a feeble attempt to justify it. I have already explained this. It's very weird that you would continue to make an argument you know is wrong.
It's also weird that right-wing bigots think pretending storybook characters are real places them above the law.
Finally, an intelligent set of questions from "the other side of the fence", which does not contain any semblance of attack. The rest of y'all, take a lesson from Rlarson21.
Here are your answers.
1) It really isn't. I have every reason to believe homosexuality is a chosen orientation and I will back this up later on. (Of course, I can't back it up with scientific fact because there are no scientific facts supporting either side of that argument - "chosen" or "not chosen". That'd be near impossible to prove and thus far it has been impossible. They have found genetic markers that often predispose people to what they call "homosexual desires", but I submit that it's actually something else. Again, more on that later.)
However, there are certain things that everyone has to contend with, which aren't chosen, and when pursued or cultivated are sin. For example, the sex drive. We all have it. There's a right way and many wrong ways to use it. Why do we ever have the desire or tendency to use it in the wrong way? Well, consider this. Let's say you're taking a multiple choice test in school. Would you be proving your knowledge of the subject matter in any way, if the questions each had only one choice - the correct one? No. Instead, there is one correct answer and a few incorrect answers, and the incorrect answers generally look good enough that they can fool someone who doesn't really know the subject matter.
In the same way, life presents us with plenty of opportunity to do the wrong thing, much of which looks mightily attractive at first. There'd be no value in doing the right thing if there were no attractive opportunity to do the wrong thing. I don't like that either but you have to admit, it is logical.
2) You weren't. That's why.
Here's the explanation. If you're old enough to believe that you are homosexual, you're also old enough to have known straight people who look and act gay. I've known quite a few of those. I have a female friend who is 6 feet tall and the only thing feminine about her is her long hair. She walks, talks, cusses, and dresses like a man. Yet, she's as straight as they get.
Do you believe that she deserves love too?
Because if you do, that would require the existence of a man who is most attracted to masculine qualities in a romantic partner.
Society has labeled these people "homosexual". I say that that's been a very damaging label. The so-called "same sex" desires are by design. Since every man and woman needs love, there have to be people who are attracted to every type of man and woman - those who espouse qualities most befitting their own gender and those who espouse qualities most befitting the other gender.
Thus, I submit the following. You claim to be a homosexual man. I say you're a man who is best suited to be matched with what society generally calls a "manly woman". There are many of them out there... even some who have short hair like men. They all need love and there's one of 'em for whom you are the perfect man and she is the perfect woman. (Hey, it can't be disproven. And such a woman needs love too!) The problem is that though there are many such women out there, they are relatively rare in proportion. Let's say that they comprise only 2-3% of the adult female population. That ain't much. However, there are men all over the place... almost all of whom have mostly (if not entirely) masculine traits. If you're looking for such traits, it's ~30 times easier to find them in men than in women. Thus, it's easy enough to see how such men would be fooled into thinking that they actually want a man... when the reality is that a "manly woman" is the best and right way to go.
I know what it's like to have romantic desires that are far from the societal norm. I've always liked big, strong, fat women who are anti-"girly". Some of my romantic desires are more "same sex" in their nature, if we use the term the way modern society would define it. I've never had any attraction to anything commonly called "girly". My wife could hide a yardstick widthwise by sitting on it. She could beat up most men. She likes old cars and can change her own oil. When there are two jobs to be done concurrently - one of them "heavy work" and the other not so much - she will take the "heavy work" job every time as long as she is physically capable of doing so. We're looking at houses right now and her number one consideration as she views house listings is what work she could do on the house (she has done construction before and she likes it). I could keep going but you get the idea. And, to me, she is indescribably sexy. I've never had any desire for the "little woman" who in some way needs a big strong man around... nor the trophy lady who gets primped up every time she goes out... nor a trend-setting woman who wears chic feminine clothes. Perfume makes me sick. Makeup looks disgusting. I find high-heeled shoes both silly and ugly no matter how short you are. I don't care how long a woman goes without shaving her legs. You get the picture? If I put everything on paper, I would probably find that the majority of the "romantic" desires I've always had are better classified as "masculine" than "feminine". So I merely found a woman who is like that. They're out there.
3) No.
God didn't make "gay people" - he made people. People take their straight sexual desires and somehow convince themselves that they aren't straight. Often, that succeeds. You'd be amazed what the power of suggestion can do for a person. It happened to me, that's how I know. Looking back, as an adult, I can see how I have always been attracted to fat women. But for many years, I repressed that desire. The reasons for repression were that my parents strongly dissuaded me from pursuing fat girls (I had to set them straight about that when I was in my 20's), society dissuaded me from pursuing fat girls (a dude gets picked on in school when he goes after fat chicks, and by the time I had emerged from the pigeonhole of being picked on constantly, such that any type of girl would consider dating me, I didn't relish the thought of doing something that'd send me back there), etc. For over 10 years, I pursued women who were not fat... or at least not as fat as I liked. My first three girlfriends had hardly any meat on them at all. I had a crush for many years on a girl who was quite petite. I dated some fat girls during that time period and although deep down they were what I really wanted, I had a compulsion to be embarrassed about dating them. That's what indoctrination can do to a person. I completed my extrication therefrom, in my mid-twenties, and not two weeks later, I met the most beautiful woman my eyes have ever been blessed to see... all 6'3" and 400+ pounds of her. These days, she shares my last name... and I have no problem whatsoever being seen with someone taller than me and twice my weight. Other guys should be so lucky to have a woman they find as beautiful as I find my wife.
Now I understand that homosexuals might try to turn this argument around to attest to why they're gay. It's been done before, and I've heard it all. "I was indoctrinated for years into thinking I had to like women but deep down I always preferred men..." I'm not going to dive into this because it's another issue for another time. The fact that 98% (or at least 90+ percent) of human beings are heterosexual really ought to say something about what is normal and what is not. That other 2-3% (or whatever small amount it is), given its small size and significant deviation from the norm, is "abnormal". Yet, I don't think that that is a condition that the people are stuck with. They choose the abnormality. If they recognize that their "same-sex" desires can be perfectly well satisfied in a relationship with someone of the opposite gender, I guarantee that most would go for it. (That'd be tough to prove, though, because it would require convincing a large proportion of the indoctrinated "homosexual" population to give this an honest try for many years... so as to overcome the indoctrination. That's never easy.)
When it comes to that 2-3%... 2.9% of Americans are either in jail, or on probation or parole. Does that make it "normal" to commit serious crimes? Hey, they have the desire to commit crime... that's why they did it. Many times, such crime is ostensibly "victimless" (such as many situations involving alcohol or drug intoxication). Who are we to say that that's not normal? Do you see the problem here? These people are not criminal by nature - they have certain desires that are being misdirected. People who get that badly intoxicated are actually sad individuals who desire to escape reality. That's the true desire and that's what needs to be addressed. People who commit violent crime, given their violent nature and desires, could do a world of good in a profession where violence is the name of the game (such as urban-area law enforcement, a SWAT team, armed forces, boxing, MMA, football, etc). There is no such thing as a desire that can never be used for good. If a person desires children, sexually, he/she should pursue an adult who looks like a child. Marry a "dwarf". Go to Japan where the culture so highly glorifies looking young that women will go out of their way to look like children in order to be attractive. And if a man desires a man, and even the anal sex that men have to have, marry a manly woman who's into that. The possibilities are endless.
God does not like to torture people. In fact, it's quite the opposite. God likes to bless people. By making us all different, He has provided the best opportunity for that to happen. Let's face it... I was just talking about this with my wife yesterday. I told her that it'd be devastating for me if she had an identical twin who was indistinguishable from her, because then she wouldn't be far and away the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen. But even identical twins, according to most people, are easily distinguished! (The fact that I'm so much of a simp that I can rarely tell the difference is immaterial.) God makes us all different... in our appearances, our romantic desires, our personal natures, you name it. He has set boundaries within which we must all operate. Let's face it... LIFE has boundaries. Look around - you'll see them. There are "rules of the road" when you're driving. All sports have rules. When you get a job, you get a handbook that contains the rules and conditions of your employment. The United States is governed by thousands of laws and rules. Even in nature, in the animal kingdom, there are natural rules and restrictions... violation of which could be fatal, and for which there is often enforcement. Operation within a set of rules and boundaries is the best way to go because outside of that you would have chaos. Can you imagine what disasters would happen if there were no "rules of the road"? Can you imagine all of those maniacs who somehow earned a driver's license, being legally allowed to operate with reckless abandon on the road?!?! Maybe you're a sports fan. Can you imagine football without rules? It'd be complete pandemonium! The first thing our Founding Fathers did, when setting up America, was codify the rules and conditions under which the country would operate. Failure to do so would have been a recipe for disaster. The same must hold true for humankind. Humankind cannot operate optimally without a set of rules within which it must operate.
So here's the deal. Somewhere out there is a "manly woman" who will blow you away... and who, herself, prefers a man of your characteristics and traits. God already knows this. He isn't seeking to torture you... he's seeking to bless you. The cool thing is that you're already closer than you think, to finding that woman.
God has this way of putting you in the path of the person you're supposed to be with, so that y'all can come together. If anyone can attest to this, it's me. I found she who is now my wife in a tiny little corner of the Internet - an obscure personals site for tall people which had maybe only 100 members nationwide. (Contrast that with the millions upon millions of members claimed by the big personals sites like match.com and eHarmony!) We got together, then broke up, and she actually came back into my life a few different times over the years... the final time being after I'd already married "the wrong one" and seen the marriage completely fall apart in spite of my best efforts. Against all odds, she who is now my wife was always there at the right time... without going into detail, it is really shocking how often that happened and how it was timed. God isn't inclined toward being mean like humans can be, but if He were, I could totally see him being like "DUDE.... HERE!!!" (picking up she who is now my wife and shoving her in front of me) "IT'S THIS ONE! PAY ATTENTION!! YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE WITH HER!!! AM I GETTING THROUGH UP THERE?! HEL-LOOOOOOOO!!!! YOU SEE THIS LADY I'M SHOWING YOU?! SHE'S THE ONE FOR YOU!"... etc.
So anyway, the search won't take as long as you imagine. If you're supposed to be with a lady who lives halfway around the world, you'll get there. If you're supposed to be with a lady you once knew who you figure is a lost cause... you two will cross each other's paths again. The list of possibilities goes on and on. God is very anxiously waiting your acceptance of the blessing He has for you. Right now, you might think that you are "homosexual" because of your same-sex type of desires. For a while, my wife thought she was never going to get married because of her physical appearance. Little did she know that it would turn out to be a huge positive, for the right man. In the same way, your desires that seem "same-sex" will turn out to be a huge positive, for the right woman. It never fails. I've never been proven wrong about this. (I should introduce you to my aforementioned masculine female friend.)
That's what's so awesome about God. Above all, God is GOOD.
You are not gay, bottom line. YOU don't know $#(^ about what gay is, it is not a choice. I have zero attraction to women wether they are butch or femme. I am only attracted to masculine men. I know men who are attracted to slight and girlish men. You have no science behind your reasoning, just your bible and there is zero proof of your god. I and every single gay man and lesbian who know we did not choose to be gay are all the proof that is required. Did you choose to not have sex with men, to decieve yourself by finding a butch woman? Maybe that is your way of coping with living a lie, but many people choose to be honest with their own selves. I could never make myself want to have sex with a woman, if I had to, for the survival of the species if it came to that, I could. But I cannot make my self want to have sex with a woman. I feel sorry for you, one who makes themself straight to satisfy a fictitious book written more than 2000 years ago. I prefer living an honest life where the first person I am truthful to is myself.
God didn't make "gay people" - he made people. People take their straight
sexual desires and somehow convince themselves that they aren't straight. Often,
that succeeds. You'd be amazed what the power of suggestion can do for a person.
It happened to me, that's how I know. Looking back, as an adult, I can see how I
have always been attracted to fat women. But for many years, I repressed that
desire. The reasons for repression were that my parents strongly dissuaded me
from pursuing fat girls (I had to set them straight about that when I was in my
20's), society dissuaded me from pursuing fat girls (a dude gets picked on in
school when he goes after fat chicks, and by the time I had emerged from the
pigeonhole of being picked on constantly, such that any type of girl would
consider dating me, I didn't relish the thought of doing something that'd send
me back there), etc. For over 10 years, I pursued women who were not fat... or
at least not as fat as I liked. My first three girlfriends had hardly any meat
on them at all. I had a crush for many years on a girl who was quite petite. I
dated some fat girls during that time period and although deep down they were
what I really wanted, I had a compulsion to be embarrassed about dating them.
That's what indoctrination can do to a person. I completed my extrication
therefrom, in my mid-twenties, and not two weeks later, I met the most beautiful
woman my eyes have ever been blessed to see... all 6'3" and 400+ pounds of her.
These days, she shares my last name... and I have no problem whatsoever being
seen with someone taller than me and twice my weight. Other guys should be so
lucky to have a woman they find as beautiful as I find my wife.
We get it. You prefer a woman who looks like Sasquatch, massive and hairy. I'm glad you found her, I really am. However, then you turn around and deny others the same right...to be with who they find attractive and who turns them on.
Your God and bible are irrelevant.
This religion of yours doesn't say doing business with gay people is a sin and no aspect of Christian worship is being curtailed by anti-discrimination laws. What you're doing is expressing a personal belief and waving your bible around in a feeble attempt to justify it. I have already explained this. It's very weird that you would continue to make an argument you know is wrong.
It's also weird that right-wing bigots think pretending storybook characters are real places them above the law.
Again, the typical left-winger strategy of manipulating words and trying to convince people that something different was said. Fortunately, you can't fool me.
What I actually said was that they didn't have a problem transacting business with homosexuals - they had a problem being forced to provide something that was in direct support of a situation the Bible calls sinful. We are to love the sinner and hate the sin, even though that is a simplistic paraphrasing of what the Bible says (rather than actual word-for-word Scripture). Doing something for a "gay wedding" is supporting the sin. Doing something like selling food to a homosexual would fall under "love the sinner"... because eating is not a sin no matter what the sexual orientation of the eater.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDragonslayer
You are not gay, bottom line. YOU don't know $#(^ about what gay is, it is not a choice. I have zero attraction to women wether they are butch or femme. I am only attracted to masculine men. I know men who are attracted to slight and girlish men. You have no science behind your reasoning, just your bible and there is zero proof of your god. I and every single gay man and lesbian who know we did not choose to be gay are all the proof that is required. Did you choose to not have sex with men, to decieve yourself by finding a butch woman? Maybe that is your way of coping with living a lie, but many people choose to be honest with their own selves. I could never make myself want to have sex with a woman, if I had to, for the survival of the species if it came to that, I could. But I cannot make my self want to have sex with a woman. I feel sorry for you, one who makes themself straight to satisfy a fictitious book written more than 2000 years ago. I prefer living an honest life where the first person I am truthful to is myself.
You have no science behind your reasoning either because there is none. Your evidence is "every single gay man and lesbian who know we did not choose to be gay". I could give you plenty of examples of "gay men and lesbians" who chose that orientation and then gave it up at some point. So don't knock me for not having scientific evidence to support my assertion when you have none of your own. When they find, beyond doubt, a "gay gene" which is present in every tested homosexual and absent in every tested heterosexual, then I'll believe.
And just how old were you, dear DragonSlayer, when you discovered that you had zero sexual / romantic attraction to girls and instead preferred boys?
Also, I haven't made myself straight. Quite contrarily - I can trace my attraction to tall fat women back to age 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz
We get it. You prefer a woman who looks like Sasquatch, massive and hairy. I'm glad you found her, I really am. However, then you turn around and deny others the same right...to be with who they find attractive and who turns them on.
Your God and bible are irrelevant.
My wife isn't hairy. Far from it, actually. She has a beautiful head of hair but beyond that, like pretty much every other woman out there, whatever other hair she has is glorified peach fuzz. But I'm sure there are dudes who honestly prefer hairy women. Given how many hairy women are out there, this is a good thing.
And if you think God and the Bible are irrelevant, again, I hope you're okay with gambling "all-in" with your eternal destiny. If you're fine with the consequences, you are as free as anyone to live your earthly life as you see fit. If you don't believe there will be consequences, you'd better be right.
But no religion's sacred text would say you are.
Here is what the world's major religions say about homosexuality.
#1 - Christianity (33% of world's population claims adherence) - Homosexuality is a sin.
#2 - Islam (21%) - Homosexuality is a sin.
#3 - Hinduism (14%) - A range of beliefs depending upon denomination, the majority of which say homosexuality is wrong.
#4 - Buddhism (6%) - One should neither be attached to, nor crave, sensual pleasure. Since "gay sex" cannot cause human reproduction regardless of which gender does it, it is only for pleasure and therefore forbidden by Buddhism. Different denominations vary in their doctrine toward homosexual relationships even if they don't include sex, with the majority stating that it is bad / wrong / sinful.
That's 74% already. Plus, plenty of other religions with lower world percentages of adherents (such as Judaism, Baha'i, Jainism, and Zoroastrianism) take clear stands against homosexuality.
The largest religion that clearly accepts homosexuality is Unitarian Universalism (0.0011%). And Unitarian Universalism doesn't have a "sacred text".
Again I ask a question I asked in a recent post, in hopes that some of you will actually answer the question rather than display your unwillingness to engage in civil discourse by dodging it:
I have one question for all of you who think I'm some miserable miscreant who spends all of his days wallowing in the filth of self-destructive desires to discriminate and hate. First, the background. The books that comprise the Bible have been around for millennia. It was THE STANDARD OF THE WORLD for many centuries as it was the sacred text of the world's largest religion. (Still is, technically.) It was certainly the standard of America until around the 1950's, despite what you may say about the separation of church and state. Study American history and you will find, among many other Christian aspects of earlier America, Supreme Court justices stating for many decades that the Bible must be considered in all legislative processes, for its wisdom. Historically, American laws have minded the Bible at every step and were usually perfectly aligned with what the Bible says on whatever the topic was. (Notice how I said "usually". Don't bother trying to find one counterexample. "Usually" means "most of them".) Drive around these days, pretty much anywhere in America, and you see Christian churches EVERYWHERE. They outnumber churches for other religions many times over. Christianity is still the world's largest religion, claiming approximately 2 billion adherents (though the actual number can never be truly ascertained). History shows how Christianity has been deeply entrenched into various powerful world societies for a very long time. Countless billions of people throughout the centuries have believed the Bible to be true, and have followed Jesus Christ. I could keep going, but you get the picture.
Given ALL OF THIS.......
...how can you be SO SURE that it's all just a crock of horse dookey, and your modern "enlightened way" is, and therefore always was, the right way?
("Always was" because, of course, if the Bible is a crock now, it always was a crock.)
[quote]
My wife isn't hairy. Far from it, actually. She has a beautiful head of hair but beyond that, like pretty much every other woman out there, whatever other hair she has is glorified peach fuzz. But I'm sure there are dudes who honestly prefer hairy women. Given how many hairy women are out there, this is a good thing.
Quote:
nor the trophy lady who gets primped up every time she goes out... nor a trend-setting woman who wears chic feminine clothes. Perfume makes me sick. Makeup looks disgusting. I find high-heeled shoes both silly and ugly no matter how short you are. I don't care how long a woman goes without shaving her legs. You get the picture? If I put everything on paper, I would probably find that the majority of the "romantic" desires I've always had are better classified as "masculine" than "feminine". So I merely found a woman who is like that. They're out there.
Most men DO mind. So, if what floats your boat is a hairy, 400 pound woman, I'm glad you found each other. Now give the same courtesy to everyone else.
Again, the typical left-winger strategy of manipulating words and trying to convince people that something different was said. Fortunately, you can't fool me.
What I actually said was that they didn't have a problem transacting business with homosexuals - they had a problem being forced to provide something that was in direct support of a situation the Bible calls sinful. We are to love the sinner and hate the sin, even though that is a simplistic paraphrasing of what the Bible says (rather than actual word-for-word Scripture). Doing something for a "gay wedding" is supporting the sin. Doing something like selling food to a homosexual would fall under "love the sinner"... because eating is not a sin no matter what the sexual orientation of the eater.
You have no science behind your reasoning either because there is none. Your evidence is "every single gay man and lesbian who know we did not choose to be gay". I could give you plenty of examples of "gay men and lesbians" who chose that orientation and then gave it up at some point. So don't knock me for not having scientific evidence to support my assertion when you have none of your own. When they find, beyond doubt, a "gay gene" which is present in every tested homosexual and absent in every tested heterosexual, then I'll believe.
And just how old were you, dear DragonSlayer, when you discovered that you had zero sexual / romantic attraction to girls and instead preferred boys?
Also, I haven't made myself straight. Quite contrarily - I can trace my attraction to tall fat women back to age 2.
My wife isn't hairy. Far from it, actually. She has a beautiful head of hair but beyond that, like pretty much every other woman out there, whatever other hair she has is glorified peach fuzz. But I'm sure there are dudes who honestly prefer hairy women. Given how many hairy women are out there, this is a good thing.
And if you think God and the Bible are irrelevant, again, I hope you're okay with gambling "all-in" with your eternal destiny. If you're fine with the consequences, you are as free as anyone to live your earthly life as you see fit. If you don't believe there will be consequences, you'd better be right.
But no religion's sacred text would say you are.
Here is what the world's major religions say about homosexuality.
#1 - Christianity (33% of world's population claims adherence) - Homosexuality is a sin.
#2 - Islam (21%) - Homosexuality is a sin.
#3 - Hinduism (14%) - A range of beliefs depending upon denomination, the majority of which say homosexuality is wrong.
#4 - Buddhism (6%) - One should neither be attached to, nor crave, sensual pleasure. Since "gay sex" cannot cause human reproduction regardless of which gender does it, it is only for pleasure and therefore forbidden by Buddhism. Different denominations vary in their doctrine toward homosexual relationships even if they don't include sex, with the majority stating that it is bad / wrong / sinful.
That's 74% already. Plus, plenty of other religions with lower world percentages of adherents (such as Judaism, Baha'i, Jainism, and Zoroastrianism) take clear stands against homosexuality.
The largest religion that clearly accepts homosexuality is Unitarian Universalism (0.0011%). And Unitarian Universalism doesn't have a "sacred text".
Again I ask a question I asked in a recent post, in hopes that some of you will actually answer the question rather than display your unwillingness to engage in civil discourse by dodging it:
I have one question for all of you who think I'm some miserable miscreant who spends all of his days wallowing in the filth of self-destructive desires to discriminate and hate. First, the background. The books that comprise the Bible have been around for millennia. It was THE STANDARD OF THE WORLD for many centuries as it was the sacred text of the world's largest religion. (Still is, technically.) It was certainly the standard of America until around the 1950's, despite what you may say about the separation of church and state. Study American history and you will find, among many other Christian aspects of earlier America, Supreme Court justices stating for many decades that the Bible must be considered in all legislative processes, for its wisdom. Historically, American laws have minded the Bible at every step and were usually perfectly aligned with what the Bible says on whatever the topic was. (Notice how I said "usually". Don't bother trying to find one counterexample. "Usually" means "most of them".) Drive around these days, pretty much anywhere in America, and you see Christian churches EVERYWHERE. They outnumber churches for other religions many times over. Christianity is still the world's largest religion, claiming approximately 2 billion adherents (though the actual number can never be truly ascertained). History shows how Christianity has been deeply entrenched into various powerful world societies for a very long time. Countless billions of people throughout the centuries have believed the Bible to be true, and have followed Jesus Christ. I could keep going, but you get the picture.
Given ALL OF THIS.......
...how can you be SO SURE that it's all just a crock of horse dookey, and your modern "enlightened way" is, and therefore always was, the right way?
("Always was" because, of course, if the Bible is a crock now, it always was a crock.)
I knew I had an attraction to males before I was five. Again you are not gay and do not know what it feels like or that you did or did not choose it. I do not need science to know that I did not choose it and neither do most straight people who also say they did not choose to be straight. Your bible is a book that has been used to brainwash children for centuries, start early enough and the people become indoctrinated and refuse any proof that the bible may be flawed. There is no proof of a god, zero zilch nada. Keep your bible to yourself and your beliefs and stop trying to force everyone to be christians. One cannot ever use religion as proof of any science or anything biological. What did ancient goat herders know about reality? Nothing that pertains to today.
They outnumber churches for other religions many times over. Christianity is still the world's largest religion, claiming approximately 2 billion adherents (though the actual number can never be truly ascertained). History shows how Christianity has been deeply entrenched into various powerful world societies for a very long time. Countless billions of people throughout the centuries have believed the Bible to be true, and have followed Jesus Christ. I could keep going, but you get the picture.
No, I don't get the piocture.
Islam has about 2 billion adherants. Hinduism also comes close. What's your point?
Finally, an intelligent set of questions from "the other side of the fence", which does not contain any semblance of attack. The rest of y'all, take a lesson from Rlarson21.
Here are your answers.
1) It really isn't. I have every reason to believe homosexuality is a chosen orientation and I will back this up later on. (Of course, I can't back it up with scientific fact because there are no scientific facts supporting either side of that argument - "chosen" or "not chosen". That'd be near impossible to prove and thus far it has been impossible. They have found genetic markers that often predispose people to what they call "homosexual desires", but I submit that it's actually something else. Again, more on that later.)
However, there are certain things that everyone has to contend with, which aren't chosen, and when pursued or cultivated are sin. For example, the sex drive. We all have it. There's a right way and many wrong ways to use it. Why do we ever have the desire or tendency to use it in the wrong way? Well, consider this. Let's say you're taking a multiple choice test in school. Would you be proving your knowledge of the subject matter in any way, if the questions each had only one choice - the correct one? No. Instead, there is one correct answer and a few incorrect answers, and the incorrect answers generally look good enough that they can fool someone who doesn't really know the subject matter.
In the same way, life presents us with plenty of opportunity to do the wrong thing, much of which looks mightily attractive at first. There'd be no value in doing the right thing if there were no attractive opportunity to do the wrong thing. I don't like that either but you have to admit, it is logical.
2) You weren't. That's why.
Here's the explanation. If you're old enough to believe that you are homosexual, you're also old enough to have known straight people who look and act gay. I've known quite a few of those. I have a female friend who is 6 feet tall and the only thing feminine about her is her long hair. She walks, talks, cusses, and dresses like a man. Yet, she's as straight as they get.
Do you believe that she deserves love too?
Because if you do, that would require the existence of a man who is most attracted to masculine qualities in a romantic partner.
Society has labeled these people "homosexual". I say that that's been a very damaging label. The so-called "same sex" desires are by design. Since every man and woman needs love, there have to be people who are attracted to every type of man and woman - those who espouse qualities most befitting their own gender and those who espouse qualities most befitting the other gender.
Thus, I submit the following. You claim to be a homosexual man. I say you're a man who is best suited to be matched with what society generally calls a "manly woman". There are many of them out there... even some who have short hair like men. They all need love and there's one of 'em for whom you are the perfect man and she is the perfect woman. (Hey, it can't be disproven. And such a woman needs love too!) The problem is that though there are many such women out there, they are relatively rare in proportion. Let's say that they comprise only 2-3% of the adult female population. That ain't much. However, there are men all over the place... almost all of whom have mostly (if not entirely) masculine traits. If you're looking for such traits, it's ~30 times easier to find them in men than in women. Thus, it's easy enough to see how such men would be fooled into thinking that they actually want a man... when the reality is that a "manly woman" is the best and right way to go.
I know what it's like to have romantic desires that are far from the societal norm. I've always liked big, strong, fat women who are anti-"girly". Some of my romantic desires are more "same sex" in their nature, if we use the term the way modern society would define it. I've never had any attraction to anything commonly called "girly". My wife could hide a yardstick widthwise by sitting on it. She could beat up most men. She likes old cars and can change her own oil. When there are two jobs to be done concurrently - one of them "heavy work" and the other not so much - she will take the "heavy work" job every time as long as she is physically capable of doing so. We're looking at houses right now and her number one consideration as she views house listings is what work she could do on the house (she has done construction before and she likes it). I could keep going but you get the idea. And, to me, she is indescribably sexy. I've never had any desire for the "little woman" who in some way needs a big strong man around... nor the trophy lady who gets primped up every time she goes out... nor a trend-setting woman who wears chic feminine clothes. Perfume makes me sick. Makeup looks disgusting. I find high-heeled shoes both silly and ugly no matter how short you are. I don't care how long a woman goes without shaving her legs. You get the picture? If I put everything on paper, I would probably find that the majority of the "romantic" desires I've always had are better classified as "masculine" than "feminine". So I merely found a woman who is like that. They're out there.
3) No.
God didn't make "gay people" - he made people. People take their straight sexual desires and somehow convince themselves that they aren't straight. Often, that succeeds. You'd be amazed what the power of suggestion can do for a person. It happened to me, that's how I know. Looking back, as an adult, I can see how I have always been attracted to fat women. But for many years, I repressed that desire. The reasons for repression were that my parents strongly dissuaded me from pursuing fat girls (I had to set them straight about that when I was in my 20's), society dissuaded me from pursuing fat girls (a dude gets picked on in school when he goes after fat chicks, and by the time I had emerged from the pigeonhole of being picked on constantly, such that any type of girl would consider dating me, I didn't relish the thought of doing something that'd send me back there), etc. For over 10 years, I pursued women who were not fat... or at least not as fat as I liked. My first three girlfriends had hardly any meat on them at all. I had a crush for many years on a girl who was quite petite. I dated some fat girls during that time period and although deep down they were what I really wanted, I had a compulsion to be embarrassed about dating them. That's what indoctrination can do to a person. I completed my extrication therefrom, in my mid-twenties, and not two weeks later, I met the most beautiful woman my eyes have ever been blessed to see... all 6'3" and 400+ pounds of her. These days, she shares my last name... and I have no problem whatsoever being seen with someone taller than me and twice my weight. Other guys should be so lucky to have a woman they find as beautiful as I find my wife.
Now I understand that homosexuals might try to turn this argument around to attest to why they're gay. It's been done before, and I've heard it all. "I was indoctrinated for years into thinking I had to like women but deep down I always preferred men..." I'm not going to dive into this because it's another issue for another time. The fact that 98% (or at least 90+ percent) of human beings are heterosexual really ought to say something about what is normal and what is not. That other 2-3% (or whatever small amount it is), given its small size and significant deviation from the norm, is "abnormal". Yet, I don't think that that is a condition that the people are stuck with. They choose the abnormality. If they recognize that their "same-sex" desires can be perfectly well satisfied in a relationship with someone of the opposite gender, I guarantee that most would go for it. (That'd be tough to prove, though, because it would require convincing a large proportion of the indoctrinated "homosexual" population to give this an honest try for many years... so as to overcome the indoctrination. That's never easy.)
When it comes to that 2-3%... 2.9% of Americans are either in jail, or on probation or parole. Does that make it "normal" to commit serious crimes? Hey, they have the desire to commit crime... that's why they did it. Many times, such crime is ostensibly "victimless" (such as many situations involving alcohol or drug intoxication). Who are we to say that that's not normal? Do you see the problem here? These people are not criminal by nature - they have certain desires that are being misdirected. People who get that badly intoxicated are actually sad individuals who desire to escape reality. That's the true desire and that's what needs to be addressed. People who commit violent crime, given their violent nature and desires, could do a world of good in a profession where violence is the name of the game (such as urban-area law enforcement, a SWAT team, armed forces, boxing, MMA, football, etc). There is no such thing as a desire that can never be used for good. If a person desires children, sexually, he/she should pursue an adult who looks like a child. Marry a "dwarf". Go to Japan where the culture so highly glorifies looking young that women will go out of their way to look like children in order to be attractive. And if a man desires a man, and even the anal sex that men have to have, marry a manly woman who's into that. The possibilities are endless.
God does not like to torture people. In fact, it's quite the opposite. God likes to bless people. By making us all different, He has provided the best opportunity for that to happen. Let's face it... I was just talking about this with my wife yesterday. I told her that it'd be devastating for me if she had an identical twin who was indistinguishable from her, because then she wouldn't be far and away the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen. But even identical twins, according to most people, are easily distinguished! (The fact that I'm so much of a simp that I can rarely tell the difference is immaterial.) God makes us all different... in our appearances, our romantic desires, our personal natures, you name it. He has set boundaries within which we must all operate. Let's face it... LIFE has boundaries. Look around - you'll see them. There are "rules of the road" when you're driving. All sports have rules. When you get a job, you get a handbook that contains the rules and conditions of your employment. The United States is governed by thousands of laws and rules. Even in nature, in the animal kingdom, there are natural rules and restrictions... violation of which could be fatal, and for which there is often enforcement. Operation within a set of rules and boundaries is the best way to go because outside of that you would have chaos. Can you imagine what disasters would happen if there were no "rules of the road"? Can you imagine all of those maniacs who somehow earned a driver's license, being legally allowed to operate with reckless abandon on the road?!?! Maybe you're a sports fan. Can you imagine football without rules? It'd be complete pandemonium! The first thing our Founding Fathers did, when setting up America, was codify the rules and conditions under which the country would operate. Failure to do so would have been a recipe for disaster. The same must hold true for humankind. Humankind cannot operate optimally without a set of rules within which it must operate.
So here's the deal. Somewhere out there is a "manly woman" who will blow you away... and who, herself, prefers a man of your characteristics and traits. God already knows this. He isn't seeking to torture you... he's seeking to bless you. The cool thing is that you're already closer than you think, to finding that woman.
God has this way of putting you in the path of the person you're supposed to be with, so that y'all can come together. If anyone can attest to this, it's me. I found she who is now my wife in a tiny little corner of the Internet - an obscure personals site for tall people which had maybe only 100 members nationwide. (Contrast that with the millions upon millions of members claimed by the big personals sites like match.com and eHarmony!) We got together, then broke up, and she actually came back into my life a few different times over the years... the final time being after I'd already married "the wrong one" and seen the marriage completely fall apart in spite of my best efforts. Against all odds, she who is now my wife was always there at the right time... without going into detail, it is really shocking how often that happened and how it was timed. God isn't inclined toward being mean like humans can be, but if He were, I could totally see him being like "DUDE.... HERE!!!" (picking up she who is now my wife and shoving her in front of me) "IT'S THIS ONE! PAY ATTENTION!! YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE WITH HER!!! AM I GETTING THROUGH UP THERE?! HEL-LOOOOOOOO!!!! YOU SEE THIS LADY I'M SHOWING YOU?! SHE'S THE ONE FOR YOU!"... etc.
So anyway, the search won't take as long as you imagine. If you're supposed to be with a lady who lives halfway around the world, you'll get there. If you're supposed to be with a lady you once knew who you figure is a lost cause... you two will cross each other's paths again. The list of possibilities goes on and on. God is very anxiously waiting your acceptance of the blessing He has for you. Right now, you might think that you are "homosexual" because of your same-sex type of desires. For a while, my wife thought she was never going to get married because of her physical appearance. Little did she know that it would turn out to be a huge positive, for the right man. In the same way, your desires that seem "same-sex" will turn out to be a huge positive, for the right woman. It never fails. I've never been proven wrong about this. (I should introduce you to my aforementioned masculine female friend.)
That's what's so awesome about God. Above all, God is GOOD.
I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read this post.
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