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It's sad that you have such a low, albeit incorrect, view of Christians. They want to keep values like this:
Many of our social ills are a direct result of people not obeying God's laws on sex.
Wrong. The Europeans have much more lax ideas about "God's laws on sex," and they pretty much beat us in all "social ills" categories.
The Japanese give two figs about your God's laws on sex, and similarly lack the "social ills" that you complain of.
Moreover, murder, pestilence, poverty, exploitation, theft...... all were much higher during that time in history when everyone believed God was a nosy neighbor peeking into the bedrooms ready to cast them to hell for not doing sex "the right way."
Finally, those countries that vehemently adhere to "God's law" are the most backwards, undeveloped, socially abhorrent and oppressive countries on earth today, with plenty of "social ills" to make the West blush. Exhibit A: The Middle East. Exhibit B: Africa.
If you think the institution of marriage is a good thing, why wouldn't you want adult gays to partake in it? If you believe that marriage provides some sort of stability and that married people live longer, then isn't it a good thing that more people aspire to be a part of that institution? Logically, I don't see how it impacts/threatens other people's good marriages and I'm very conservative on everything else.
As far as the other thing goes, we protect children and animals.
Personally, I think you have to be nutball crazy to want more than one spouse. Just think of the tax form nightmare. "Do I look fat in this?" becomes "Do I look fatter than her and her and her in this?" You'll spend all week, nevermind all night, night arguing about what movie to watch. You think you have money problems with one spendaholic. Think of what it would be like with 5 of them. It would be like you're married to Congress.
I support it in that they should be able to get that legal government paper to qualify for benefits.
I don't support it in that they force others who, for religious reasons, don't want to do business with them via the courts.
What makes it abnormal? It's universally found in nearly every animal species on Earth. You don't actually have a logical reason to hold the views you do. You're clinging to emotion and ignorance, because you think it's "icky".
Oh gosh you can't be serious. It is abnormal when it occurs even in nature too. Animals also eat poop and devour their young, you want to use that as an excuse to do those things too?
You don't actually have a logical reason to hold the views you do. You're clinging to emotion and ignorance, because you think it's "peachy keen". See how silly that is if I do it to you?
Let's hear you say you wouldn't be throwing a hissy fit if the guy had been fired for supporting gay marriage. If you don't say it you're a hypocrite and if you do say it, I call bullsh*t.
If 2 people want to live life being nasty, be nasty in the closet where it should've stayed all along.
Tb
This is why we need to have full equal rights for gays and lesbians implemented by the federal government, so that people like this cannot marginalize us, put us in closets. I find it interesting that what gay people do when they have sex is nasty and needs to be legislated, yet what straight people do is not nasty. Maybe christians should take their religion and go in a closet with it, or maybe I should say into a cloister.
Oh I see. Calling people "abnormal" is "being civil" in your book?
Your sense of morality most likely DOES come from the Bible or some type of religion, because most... 90%+.... non-religious or a-religious people do not assign morality labels to sexuality. They just don't. They may have a problem with homosexuality because they think it's "gross," but linking "morality" and "consensual sex acts" is a pretty much universally a religious thing.
And frankly, "Tundra Boy," it matters not whether you think gay people are normal. People educated on issues of sexuality and psychology DO... and that's all that matters. If we spent our days trying to change the minds of the willfully ignorant, nothing would ever get done.
That's why we pretty much ignore you once you've reached irrelevance. Which has happened, or will happen soon enough. We'll come get your opinion whenever we need to know what lichens are edible. Or whatever it is you're actually qualified to render an educated opinion on.
Thanks!
Generalities, distortions and more personal attacks, Thanks!
I don't support it in that they force others who, for religious reasons, don't want to do business with them via the courts.
In Minnesota, it is illegal to refuse a business engagement for any reason other than a legitimate business reason. You can't refuse business to black people, jews, gays, whatever. That law was enacted in 1993.
It has nothing to do with gay marriage. You simply aren't allowed to discriminate.
When MN was working on same-sex marriage, there was much brow-furrowing over whether private businesses would be required to serve gay couples. The people worrying about this were referred to the above law.
The real question is why is the government involved in marriage at all? Let people do whatever they want. Marriage is a personal matter, it shouldn't be a legal one.
And while your first sentence may be true, without a doubt you want marriage to validate your lifestyle.
What are you, 10? There are not special rights for gay marriage, the marriage infers all the same exact rights and benefits that you straigth people get with civil marriage, not more, not less. Since marriage rights are granted to every straight couple that marrys, then it is you that is getting special rights, not us.
So typical. Your side can't just have an open discussion. You have to always resort to insulting the other person's intelligence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
Nobody is pushing a belief on you. You can believe what you want.
You mean in private, never daring to speak the truth out loud in public? That kinda goes against Mark 16:15.
So basically you want to deny my freedom of religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
What is NOT acceptable is to use your personal beliefs to endorse or promote systematic discrimination by preventing a certain segment of the population from having equal access to rights and privileges you have.
Again, it's YOUR side that wants to endorse a personal belief and force a major societal change. And where does it stop? Can a gay person claim discrimination if a pastor refuses to marry them? Your side has already manipulated separation of church and state laws to allow gays to have leadership positions in Christian organizations if they have any government level ties. Where will it stop?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
In other words:
1. Nobody is forcing you to do anything.
2. You can believe whatever you want.
3. You can't use your beliefs to prevent others from doing what they want.
Or in other, other words:
1. Your beliefs, the way you would like to see them played out, would directly affect other people and impinge on their rights and freedom.
2. Same sex marriage, however, is none of your business and has no effect on you whatsoever.
Are you getting it yet?
I have given specific examples on how SSM is affecting Christians negatively. Instead of honestly acknowledging that this reality exists, you try to sweep it under the rug with Well it's the LAW!! So freaking what? That doesn't change that people are already losing their jobs and businesses because of this issue.
The thing you don't get is this is not a simple black and white issue. You refuse to look at the gray area here resorting back to the tactic of using labels like bigot and hypocrite to create an illusion of moral superiority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
If someone wanted to force you to change your beliefs, or prevent you from practicing your religion, or prevent you from speaking freely about this or any other topic, I would be the first in line to fight for your right to hold on to all those things, whether I agree with them or not.
I doubt it since you apparently have no problem with people losing their jobs and businesses because of exercising their right to free speech and religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griffis
You don't like or believe in same sex marriage? Fine. Don't have one. But don't prevent other people from having one.
You are over simplifying a complex issue. I have no issue with people who want to live a gay lifestyle. If that is what makes you happy in life, go for it. I also think gay couples should have the same legal benefits as married couples. But the problem is this issue crosses over religious lines. You are bringing it into my house of worship, and on a social level, you are indeed forcing me to accept it as natural and normal. Otherwise, I face consequences.
(and yes, I realize marriages don't have to be conducted at church, but obviously there are gay couples out there who want a church ceremony)
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