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It's easy, neither dealers or gun owners are held responsible and with the proliferation of guns there is easy access. You are just guessing rather than presenting the a credible argument
If by guessing you mean applying business logic, then yes. Drug Cartels are businesses, they operate on profit and losses just like any other business, the only difference is their merchandise, and methods used to deal with competitors and extract payments of monies owed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight
Quote:
At least 2 of every 3 firearms confiscated in Mexico from 2007 to 2011 were
purchased in the United States and smuggled south, according to the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Many of the weapons ended up in the
hands of criminal organizations and were used against the military, journalists
and civilians.
"In the last six years, they had over 70,000 people murdered in drug-related
violence, and a vast majority were using very sophisticated firearms that came
from the United States," said Eric Olson, associate director of the Latin
American Program at the Woodrow Wilson International Center in Washington. "It's
having a dramatic impact on Mexico."
Nice sound bite, now answer the following questions...
How many traces did the ATF actually run?
If Mexico submitted 3 traces for BATFE, and 2 of those 3 were from the US, it's 2 weapons
How many total firearms were confiscated in Mexico?
If Mexico confiscated 500,000 and there were 100,000 traces run, then that's only 20% of the total confiscated, and therefore just over 13% of the total guns recovered were from the US.
How many total firearms were sold through dealer FFL's?
As the US Military and other government agencies have been supplying Mexico's armed forces and much of South America with weapons for decades, how many were originally manufactured for the military, then sold by Mexico's (or other South American countries) military to the cartels? Any firearm manufactured for commercial sale irrespective of civilian or military/law enforcement undergo's the same process, it requires a serial number and that is available to BATFE, so a stolen/sold military weapon would result in a positive trace.
How many total firearms had prior owners informed law enforcement that they had been stolen?
If a large percentage of firearms traced had been stolen, then we don't have a "gun running" problem from people running over the border to buy guns, but a firearm theft problem, while this can be gamed a little, if the gun was recorded as stolen 1-2 years prior to recovery in Mexico, then it's likely that the owner is being honest.
How many firearms were allowed to be transferred via Wide Receiver, Fast and Furious and similar programs?
If the vast majority of all firearms recovered were from these programs, then the issue is the program given that FFL's in New Mexico, Arizona, and other border states had informed BATFE there was an issue and were refusing sales prior to the beginning of these programs.
Once you can tell me all of that, then we know precisely what we're dealing with. 2 out of 3 is meaningless without context, there is no context in that report. It's like saying that out study states that 90% of people will die of cancer, without informing you the study group was all stage 4 metastatic cancer sufferers and there were 10 of them and 9 died during the study, well duh, if you choose your study population correctly you can prove black is white.
If by guessing you mean applying business logic, then yes. Drug Cartels are businesses, they operate on profit and losses just like any other business, the only difference is their merchandise, and methods used to deal with competitors and extract payments of monies owed.
Nice sound bite, now answer the following questions...
How many traces did the ATF actually run?
If Mexico submitted 3 traces for BATFE, and 2 of those 3 were from the US, it's 2 weapons
How many total firearms were confiscated in Mexico?
If Mexico confiscated 500,000 and there were 100,000 traces run, then that's only 20% of the total confiscated, and therefore just over 13% of the total guns recovered were from the US.
How many total firearms were sold through dealer FFL's?
As the US Military and other government agencies have been supplying Mexico's armed forces and much of South America with weapons for decades, how many were originally manufactured for the military, then sold by Mexico's (or other South American countries) military to the cartels? Any firearm manufactured for commercial sale irrespective of civilian or military/law enforcement undergo's the same process, it requires a serial number and that is available to BATFE, so a stolen/sold military weapon would result in a positive trace.
How many total firearms had prior owners informed law enforcement that they had been stolen?
If a large percentage of firearms traced had been stolen, then we don't have a "gun running" problem from people running over the border to buy guns, but a firearm theft problem, while this can be gamed a little, if the gun was recorded as stolen 1-2 years prior to recovery in Mexico, then it's likely that the owner is being honest.
How many firearms were allowed to be transferred via Wide Receiver, Fast and Furious and similar programs?
If the vast majority of all firearms recovered were from these programs, then the issue is the program given that FFL's in New Mexico, Arizona, and other border states had informed BATFE there was an issue and were refusing sales prior to the beginning of these programs.
Once you can tell me all of that, then we know precisely what we're dealing with. 2 out of 3 is meaningless without context, there is no context in that report. It's like saying that out study states that 90% of people will die of cancer, without informing you the study group was all stage 4 metastatic cancer sufferers and there were 10 of them and 9 died during the study, well duh, if you choose your study population correctly you can prove black is white.
Gungnir, you are using to much logic and reason for him to understand...
I chuckle every time I hear a gun nut say that their gun zealotry is "protecting their freedom" when, in fact, it is doing exactly the opposite. For there is no more effective way to insure a growing police state than a no-compromise pro-gun stance. And it is happening as we speak. They think they are gliding down the highway when, in fact, they are slip-sliding away. Regrettably, so are we all.
This latest in the long chain of tragedies will once again crank security concerns up another notch, resulting in more suspicion, more checkpoints, more searches, more impediment to people being left alone to go about their business free of harassment and challenge.
Everyone can see where this is going....that is, everyone not blinded by the religion of their gun-centric upbringing. Gun nuts are gradually frittering away all other freedoms in trade for one. And anyone willing to trade freedom for guns deserves neither.
you just live in the wrong collective state. try living in a state that has more freedom, and stop relying on government to provide for everything. stop calling 911 every time something happens.
You know exactly what I meant, the reference was to imports other than the US as implied but thanks for adding to the conversation. They are not importing these guns from overseas, Canada or SA for the most part, maybe you have some facts instead of just opinion. They can just walk across the border and get whatever they want, just because they have money doesn't mean they need to go overseas and the facts back that up, the largest majority of their guns come from the US.
It's easy, neither dealers or gun owners are held responsible and with the proliferation of guns there is easy access. You are just guessing rather than presenting the a credible argument
Do you REALLY believe that all that foriegn made hardware is coming into Mexico from the US? If so, you need to rethink things. The US hardware that the cartels are packing is military grade. You don't buy that stuff at Cabelas or the local gun shop. F&F proved that the cartels are getting their guns here?! Well. Ok. In that "ill conceived" case, the source was correct, just not the standard method of delivery. US weapons usually go into Mexico via the USAF, postmarked to the Mexican govt. They get sold to the cartels after delivery. Lol, yep, the biggest US arms dealer to the cartels is Uncle Sam.
But, US weapons are not the bread and butter. To finicky and to expensive. The average cartel soldier gets an AK. Cheap, tough, powerful and simple enough for the average monkey to use. Tokarevs, Makarovs,AKs, RPKs and such are the biggys. Those don't come from the US.
You are quite misinformed and have swallowed WAY to much Kool Aid, man. Guns are NOT flowing like a river across the US/Mexican border. Some, but a pittance, and many of the "intercepted" weapons heading south were being brought by civilians. Stuff in calibers like 38 Super, 16 ga, 22 LR, 380 etc. Civilians can have guns there, IF they are chambered in non service issue calibers. These guns are not heading to the drug runners. Just poor, average slobs who want to pot some meat or think they might be able to defend their families better with anything that goes bang.
Everything you have said is wrong, your take on this is wrong, your knowledge of weapons is non existent and still you rant on. Do some digging. Here's an idea, get out in the REAL world and see for yourself. Talk to some Mexican nationals and get the real skinny. What you find out may surprise you.
I chuckle every time I hear a gun nut say that their gun zealotry is "protecting their freedom" when, in fact, it is doing exactly the opposite. For there is no more effective way to insure a growing police state than a no-compromise pro-gun stance. And it is happening as we speak. They think they are gliding down the highway when, in fact, they are slip-sliding away. Regrettably, so are we all.
This latest in the long chain of tragedies will once again crank security concerns up another notch, resulting in more suspicion, more checkpoints, more searches, more impediment to people being left alone to go about their business free of harassment and challenge.
Everyone can see where this is going....that is, everyone not blinded by the religion of their gun-centric upbringing. Gun nuts are gradually frittering away all other freedoms in trade for one. And anyone willing to trade freedom for guns deserves neither.
TRANSLATION:
If you have an oppressive government that is violating your rights, creating more checkpoints, doing more searches, and creating impediments to people being left alone to go about their business free of harassment and challenge...
....do NOT adopt a no-compromise pro-gun stance in response. The government will become even more oppressive, doing all those things even more. And then we'll go around saying their oppression is YOUR fault instead of theirs.
Do what they want, instead of resisting it. Then things will get better.
I chuckle every time I hear a gun nut say that their gun zealotry is "protecting their freedom" when, in fact, it is doing exactly the opposite. For there is no more effective way to insure a growing police state than a no-compromise pro-gun stance. And it is happening as we speak. They think they are gliding down the highway when, in fact, they are slip-sliding away. Regrettably, so are we all.
This latest in the long chain of tragedies will once again crank security concerns up another notch, resulting in more suspicion, more checkpoints, more searches, more impediment to people being left alone to go about their business free of harassment and challenge.
Everyone can see where this is going....that is, everyone not blinded by the religion of their gun-centric upbringing. Gun nuts are gradually frittering away all other freedoms in trade for one. And anyone willing to trade freedom for guns deserves neither.
Nazi Germany
The Soviet Union
Red China
North Korea
Cuba
They dont have gun ownership...do they not have a police state?
I walk to my car in the day, morning or night and 3 men want my wallet and my life, the police can't protect me.
I sleep in my house at night with my daughter and wife, 2 men break in and rape and kill my wife and daughter, the police can't protect me.
A man walks into a day care center with a knife and kills 5 kids and 3 infants and 2 adults, the police can't protect them.
6 men on a airplane with box cutters crash the plane killing everyone and 3,000 lives, men, women, and children, the police died in the buildings and couldn't help them.
Government troops and police comes to your house, gives you a badge as a star, since your unarmed and were disarmed months ago drags you off to a camp and gases you and your whole family and the police helped the government do it.
When all these men come to my house, where I walk or while I sleep those men who dare try and take my life are met with a GUN and they are the ones taken away in police body bags.
These evil men can do all these terrible things with just knives and when government troops come they will do it with guns.
2nd amendment protects your LIFE AND LIBERTY and the PUBLIC from all these situations, its when governments and stupid people tell you otherwise you end up DEAD.
I walk to my car in the day, morning or night and 3 men want my wallet and my life, the police can't protect me.
I sleep in my house at night with my daughter and wife, 2 men break in and rape and kill my wife and daughter, the police can't protect me.
A man walks into a day care center with a knife and kills 5 kids and 3 infants and 2 adults, the police can't protect them.
6 men on a airplane with box cutters crash the plane killing everyone and 3,000 lives, men, women, and children, the police died in the buildings and couldn't help them.
Government troops and police comes to your house, gives you a badge as a star, since your unarmed and were disarmed months ago drags you off to a camp and gases you and your whole family and the police helped the government do it.
When all these men come to my house, where I walk or while I sleep those men who dare try and take my life are met with a GUN and they are the ones taken away in police body bags.
These evil men can do all these terrible things with just knives and when government troops come they will do it with guns.
2nd amendment protects your LIFE AND LIBERTY and the PUBLIC from all these situations, its when governments and stupid people tell you otherwise you end up DEAD.
My words and ideas no reference needed.
If my wife and all my children were killed before I could save them, I'd turn the gun on myself, after killing the intruders, of course. I'd make sure to torture them by shooting out their knees first and letting them suffer. Take my time... load up the shotgun... you know... when ya got nothing to lose...
I don't think the government is ever going to drag people off and gas them for no reason, but hey, I got my guns at least. I'm not stupid though... I know our gun freedoms are always under threat.... it's one reason we do need those otherwise pesky republicans (as a social libertarian)
I don't think the government is ever going to drag people off and gas them for no reason, but hey, I got my guns at least. I'm not stupid though... I know our gun freedoms are always under threat.... it's one reason we do need those otherwise pesky republicans (as a social libertarian)
I don't believe I'll ever need my gun to protect myself from the government. The reason I believe this is because our population is armed. If we weren't armed, that's when I'd really be worried I'd need a gun to protect myself. It's the reason why our founders made sure we had the right to be armed. We don't need guns to stop the government because we already have them to stop the government.
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I'm not stupid though... I know our gun freedoms are always under threat.... it's one reason we do need those otherwise pesky republicans (as a social libertarian)