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Old 11-20-2007, 06:59 AM
 
2,971 posts, read 2,251,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
Finally, Saganista, I'll quibble with one point of yours--innocent, perhaps, but very telling--and that's your description of illegals as a "subset of modern Americans". By definition, they AREN'T Americans---that's the whole 'crux' of the issue. Fair or not, love them, hate them, or hold no opinion either way, illegals are NOT citizens. . .
And I will quibble with one of yours. . . many are Americans, just not North Americans or U.S. citizens. . .

They may be South Americans or Central Americans. But I do agree they are illegal and uninvited guests that are using our resources and taxing our system, and committing their share of crimes (besides the crime of being here!).

 
Old 11-20-2007, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Arizona
5,408 posts, read 7,784,541 times
Reputation: 1198
Nope, they are invited all right.. just through the back door by the companies that are hiring them. They are not citizens but they are a subset of modern society...that was the point of the amnesty, to get them officially in the system so they could pay their fair share, but the wacko fringe shot that down. So here we are again, same old same old. (shrug)
 
Old 11-20-2007, 12:36 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,531,721 times
Reputation: 3020
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunky1 View Post
And I will quibble with one of yours. . . many are Americans, just not North Americans or U.S. citizens. . .

They may be South Americans or Central Americans. But I do agree they are illegal and uninvited guests that are using our resources and taxing our system, and committing their share of crimes (besides the crime of being here!).
OK, I concede your point---"they are ALL Americans"...but do you really want to start down that weary road? Many months ago we discussed the fact that "all Latinos aren't latin, many Hispanics aren't Spanish, All whites aren't Caucasians, all Africans aren't black--and immigrants from Egypt or Algeria to the US are not African Americans".... and on and on and on...there's really no end to that sort of discussion..and in the end, it proves nothing.

So OK, you're right---some "Americans" aren't citizens of the US. If it will make you feel better, go ahead and call US citizens "United Stateseans"...the rest of us will continue to call them "Americans". But it will have little effect on the problems being discussed...

Sometimes when I'm out in a supermarket, restaurant, etc., I become curious about the "employees only" doorway, wondering what's back there. I feel that I should be able to enter there, because I'm an employee, too...True, I'm not an employee of THAT business, but I'm still an "employee" somewhere. So far, I've resisted the temptation, as I don't think the management would see the cleverness of my position....

One more "guilty" confession, and I'll let you alone....Frequently, attending a Swap Meet, I'll pass the "junk" table (usually run by a flamboyant Taiwanese immigrant) which is labeled, in bold letters-
"ALL ITEMS ONE DOLLAR"....and I'm tempted to scoop up the entire heap, and turn to leave, offering the exasperated businessman "One Dollar", because I'm taking "All" his items....But I don't do it. I think what he REALLY means is "EACH item, one dollar", and I act accordingly.

When people talk of "Americans", it's sort of understood that they mean "US Citizens".....so please bear with us, just as you'd bear with the "One Dollar" man at the Swap Meet.

Last edited by macmeal; 11-20-2007 at 02:11 PM..
 
Old 11-20-2007, 12:52 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,531,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
Nope, they are invited all right.. just through the back door by the companies that are hiring them. They are not citizens but they are a subset of modern society...that was the point of the amnesty, to get them officially in the system so they could pay their fair share, but the wacko fringe shot that down. So here we are again, same old same old. (shrug)
I know you're a decent fellow, Bily4, and always a good read. But I think you're giving little credit to the "cantankerous" public out there. Some of their annoyance, remember, is that we HAD a wide-ranging amnesty for illegals, back in '86. It was passed in conditions actually LESS contentious than today's but was finally accepted by a dubious public as being the "end" of the problem. People more-or-less agreed to "do the compassionate thing", against their better judgement, on the unwritten understanding that this would END the problem, and we'd get things back under control.

To say that "it didn't quite happen that way" is an understatement. There are far MORE illegals now, far angrier than those in the past. Did that amnesty back then "satisfy" anyone.?..not much, it seems. It has mostly succeeded only in further emboldening people with an ever-increasing list of MORE demands. Many people are suggesting a sort of "if you can do it ONCE, you can do it AGAIN" type of reasoning---the earlier amnesty is actually being used AGAINST us....so much for "doing the right thing"..

Perhaps that's why the "angry" public seems so disillusioned by the promises of a new amnesty..perhaps "once burned", we're not anxious to repeat the experience...Perhaps if some illegal-activists tried even a LITTLE bit of "Thanks, America, for at least giving us a temporary solution to our problems. It's not perfect, but it's a help".....and a little LESS of angry demands for all sorts of rights and concessions, maybe---just MAYBE, the heart of the American people would soften, and more and more Americans would come to sympathize with the plight of the (mostly decent) illegals. It's very hard to feel compassion for an "aggressive panhandler", even if he IS poor....

Last edited by macmeal; 11-20-2007 at 01:53 PM..
 
Old 11-20-2007, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,408 posts, read 7,784,541 times
Reputation: 1198
Mac this is probably best left for the immigration forum, but as you know I refuse to venture up there anymore, too many nasty beasties in the woods.

I will just reply that I understand what you are saying relating to '86. This new bill was supposed to deal with the people here already by getting them in the system and also tighten the enforcement of the border. A tall order? Certainly. However, failure of the bill does not help the frustrated...or anyone... at all, now does it?? What is the viable alternative supposed to be? Are we really going to deport 15-20 million people, do you think?

I would also suggest that majority of the angry illegal activists/La Raza/etc that you refer to are not illegals themselves. They are mostly legal, many college educated,or high school kids, with the time and money to march around and involve themselves with such activities. The actual illegals are far too busy working their tails off for a buck an hour to worry about that nonsense, and don't want to risk getting photographed and deported. At least this has been my personal experience when I have the opportunity to discuss these issues with them.

Last edited by bily4; 11-20-2007 at 03:30 PM..
 
Old 11-20-2007, 05:16 PM
 
2 posts, read 1,766 times
Reputation: 11
I have three beautiful children, and it saddens me that they will never know the America I grew up in. I do NOT allow my children to watch very much T.V., and when they do, I make sure they avoid Dora the Explorer, Handy Manny and other reverse assimilation propaganda that teaches our children that bi-lingualism is normal and should be accepted. America has two societies and two cultures. We are not so much multicultural as bicultural. At some point in the future, it will boil down to us versus them. In Los Angeles county the illegals nearly outnumber the native born. Assimilation will never completely occur there, and the racial violence in that city could spill over to other places. In the years ahead, many places in this country will no longer resemble the America will know and love.
 
Old 11-20-2007, 06:06 PM
 
17,290 posts, read 29,349,509 times
Reputation: 8691
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
\ The actual illegals are far too busy working their tails off for a buck an hour to worry about that nonsense, and don't want to risk getting photographed and deported. At least this has been my personal experience when I have the opportunity to discuss these issues with them.
But the question remains: If those "busting their tails" for a buck an hour are granted "amnesty," "citizenship," whatever.... then they WON'T be busting their tails for a buck an hour anymore because the only way employers can get away with paying a buck an hour is to operate outside the legal system and hire employees who won't run off to report labor violations.

Meaning that these people brought from "out of the shadows" will simply take their places along the throngs of under and unemployed legal Americans, while NEW illegals are shipped in to do the jobs the "legal status" immigrants can no longer do because they're now magically subject to labor laws!



Unless we strip away every labor and economic protection that was fought hard for by generations past, it is and will be a never-ending cycle. I wish people could see that.
 
Old 11-20-2007, 07:27 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,531,721 times
Reputation: 3020
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
Mac
? Are we really going to deport 15-20 million people, do you think?

I would also suggest that majority of the angry illegal activists/La Raza/etc that you refer to are not illegals themselves. They are mostly legal, many college educated,or high school kids, with the time and money to march around and involve themselves with such activities. The actual illegals are far too busy working their tails off for a buck an hour to worry about that nonsense, and don't want to risk getting photographed and deported. At least this has been my personal experience when I have the opportunity to discuss these issues with them.
You probably know I've never advocated deporting anyone---I'm just an old "sweetheart". All I want is a firm determination that the 15-20 million you speak of doesn't become 35 or 50 Million---which it certainly will, if something doesn't change. I want illegal immigration STOPPED, not REVERSED. It seems to me we're well within our moral rights to prevent "future" illegal border-crossing...doesn't that sound fair?

Youe whole LAST paragraph, of course, is true. "Activism" is largely the province of the college campus agitator, the idealistic teenager, or the "angry" separatist, not the 'working man'. Trouble is, they DO get a lot of coverage, and seem to have a lot of leverage...
 
Old 11-20-2007, 07:37 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,531,721 times
Reputation: 3020
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
But the question remains: If those "busting their tails" for a buck an hour are granted "amnesty," "citizenship," whatever.... then they WON'T be busting their tails for a buck an hour anymore because the only way employers can get away with paying a buck an hour is to operate outside the legal system and hire employees who won't run off to report labor violations.

Meaning that these people brought from "out of the shadows" will simply take their places along the throngs of under and unemployed legal Americans, while NEW illegals are shipped in to do the jobs the "legal status" immigrants can no longer do because they're now magically subject to labor laws!



Unless we strip away every labor and economic protection that was fought hard for by generations past, it is and will be a never-ending cycle. I wish people could see that.
I've made just this point many times--the "appeal" of the illegal as a coveted employee rests largely on his precarious legal situation. It's not that the Mexican culture has a time-honored tradition of car-washing, or lawn-mowing, or some inborn affinity for picking crops. Illegal Mexican labor is attractive because it's CHEAP. It's cheap because the workers are INTIMIDATED. They're intimidated because they have few legal protections, and they KNOW it, and their EMPLOYER knows it.
"Legalize" them, give them rights and "clout", and suddenly, you're going to have a very UN-satisfied bunch of "cheap labor". They're going to get wise in about ten minutes of this, and DEMAND higher wages, shorter hours, and more benefits...THEN what do you say, Mr. Employer?....HMMMMMM ?
 
Old 11-20-2007, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,400,833 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evlevo View Post
While the terrorists of 9/11 killed about 3,000 people in 2001, there has been another insidious killer that has taken the lives of about 2,500 people each year for decades.


I am of course talking about left-handed people using devices originally designed for right-handed people!

Shocking Facts… « Sam Ideas

I know it will be very expensive to change out all those devices, but will it cost more than $2.4 Trillion?

Iraq, Afghanistan could cost $2.4 trillion - Oct. 24, 2007


In all seriousness, there was a whole lot of things we could have done for that money that would have made us safer.

To paraphrase Hillary, it is a "vast right-hand conspiracy!"
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