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Old 11-19-2007, 02:12 PM
 
2,434 posts, read 6,658,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
Interesting how the OP couldn't get the percentage he wanted without combining several other bills. Why couldn't he just say that $441.6 billion allocated to the Department of Defense in H.R. 3222 equates to 15% of the total federal budget? Because it would've taken the wind out of his rant.
Sure 15%, but it's 15% of a budget that's unbalanced. If we keep spending money in this manner sooner or later we will bankrupt ourselves and al queda wins anyway.
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
63 posts, read 183,571 times
Reputation: 38
Everything you said, TnHilltopper, is right on... but look at what the "war on terror" has become: the new cold war. We needed something to replace it. Something to keep the American people in line. Something to keep the American public in fear. Like a red scare, the nearest terrorist is lurking around every corner. The current administration has played us like a well plucked violin and most of us fell for it hook, line and sinker. Its literally like they read George Orwell's book "1984" and used it as their play book...
How does a government keep its people in check? Keep them uneducated and fearful. This has gone on prior to Bush being in office, but the current administration has perfected the technique like no other. Our news is horrific -- people can't make well educated and informed decisions with main stream media being in the current state that it is.

Keep people dumb and tell them that Osama has 30 cousins that live in the heartland and are just waiting to blow us all to smithereens and you have acheived your objective: total control. Man... this country is going down hill fast and I don't think I'll see it recover in my life time.
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Old 11-19-2007, 05:06 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,140,533 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye48 View Post
Sure 15%, but it's 15% of a budget that's unbalanced. If we keep spending money in this manner sooner or later we will bankrupt ourselves and al queda wins anyway.
Well I wish there were a single bill or a final grand total that displayed the entire cost of our military spending but for obvious reasons it is not shown in such a manner. When all the associated and ancillary cost of our military spending are tallied, most Americans would gag, then wonder what the hell they are getting for such expenditures.



Quote:
Originally Posted by christine243 View Post
Everything you said, TnHilltopper, is right on... but look at what the "war on terror" has become: the new cold war. We needed something to replace it. Something to keep the American people in line. Something to keep the American public in fear. Like a red scare, the nearest terrorist is lurking around every corner. The current administration has played us like a well plucked violin and most of us fell for it hook, line and sinker. Its literally like they read George Orwell's book "1984" and used it as their play book...
How does a government keep its people in check? Keep them uneducated and fearful. This has gone on prior to Bush being in office, but the current administration has perfected the technique like no other. Our news is horrific -- people can't make well educated and informed decisions with main stream media being in the current state that it is.

Keep people dumb and tell them that Osama has 30 cousins that live in the heartland and are just waiting to blow us all to smithereens and you have acheived your objective: total control. Man... this country is going down hill fast and I don't think I'll see it recover in my life time.
Well I don't think we as a nation will fall so far as to never get up and in fact I happen to think this is just another bump in the grand cycle. For each upturn, there is a downturn and this is likely to be the case well into the future. America and her people will carry on and once we get out of our current downturn we will probably be a little wiser.

The use of things like fear are of course nothing new and can be found in stories and writings since the dawn of man. Things like politics, rulers, kings and tyrants alike, religion and religious leaders, cults and social engineers will use any means at their disposal to maintain control or influence over a given group of people.

My wonderment is how, after all our history of this type of repetitious behavior are people still taken in by con men, snake oil salesmen, and sellers of the latest flim flam. Generally intelligent and aware individuals so easily succumb to the group think and even faster when effective and even obvious uses of fear are employed. I guess that since I am not a fearful person, that I just don't get it.

Last edited by TnHilltopper; 11-19-2007 at 06:30 PM..
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,340,116 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Well I wish there were a single bill or a final grand total that displayed the entire cost of our military spending but for obvious reasons it is not shown in such a manner. When all the associated and ancillary cost of our military spending are tallied, most Americans would gag, then wonder what the hell they are getting for such expenditures.
It is just a single bill, as I previously posted. H.R. 3222 contains ALL the military spending for the Department of Defense. H.R. 3222 not only includes all military spending, it also includes other DoD spending that have nothing to do with the military, such as the CIA Retirement and Disability System, Environmental Restoration projects, and Overseas Humanitarian, Disaster and Civic Aid. Trying to include the Department of Homeland Security's budget, among others, and then claim it is all military spending is not only being deliberately dishonest it is grossly inaccurate.
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:48 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,140,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
It is just a single bill, as I previously posted. H.R. 3222 contains ALL the military spending for the Department of Defense. H.R. 3222 not only includes all military spending, it also includes other DoD spending that have nothing to do with the military, such as the CIA Retirement and Disability System, Environmental Restoration projects, and Overseas Humanitarian, Disaster and Civic Aid. Trying to include the Department of Homeland Security's budget, among others, and then claim it is all military spending is not only being deliberately dishonest it is grossly inaccurate.
Are you suggesting that veterans care at the VA hospitals are not a military related expenditure? Are you suggesting that Homeland Security is not a military expenditure?

Military has two broad meanings. In its first sense, it refers to soldiers and soldiering. In its second sense, it refers to armed forces as a whole.

I guess this picture below of Homeland Security doesn't in any way resemble soldiers, soldiering or an armed force in any way.

http://http://www.dod.state.ga.us/firstfridayonline/aug03/arrival%20U-01.jpg (broken link)

However I think we should take your idea and limit our military to only the 445 billion dollars and any extras they will have to beg for it, veterans with broken bodies included, right? Since that isn't really military spending.
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:01 PM
 
4,739 posts, read 10,375,824 times
Reputation: 4186
Quote:
Are you suggesting that Homeland Security is not a military expenditure?
TnHilltopper - I'm going to partially agree with you, as long as you refer only to the portion of Homeland Security that funds the Coast Guard.

Quote:
Military has two broad meanings. In its first sense, it refers to soldiers and soldiering. In its second sense, it refers to armed forces as a whole.
'Military' has only one meaning in the context of the United States - five of the seven uniformed services: Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard (the other two: Public Health - DHHS and NOAA - Commerce).

Uniformed services of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:26 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,140,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reactionary View Post
TnHilltopper - I'm going to partially agree with you, as long as you refer only to the portion of Homeland Security that funds the Coast Guard.



'Military' has only one meaning in the context of the United States - five of the seven uniformed services: Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard (the other two: Public Health - DHHS and NOAA - Commerce).

Uniformed services of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Well when I go to the Department of Defense web site and look at the following link, it shows that Homeland Security is funded by the Department of Defense, the same budget that funds the Navy, Marines, Army and the Coast Guard which is where the total of military funding was derived from.

DoD 101 An Introductory Overview of the Department of Defense - U.S. Department of Defense Official Website
Federal Funding for Homeland Security (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=5414 - broken link)

The premise of this piece was that despite the vast sums of money we spend upon defense, our military and intelligence apparatus, we are still so consumed with fear as to goad for war at the drop of a hat. I would not think that a confident, secure and strong nation would fear thugs or extremist no matter if they were Islamic radicals of the Wahaabi sect, Jewish supremacist like the JDL Irv Rubin type, or Christian fundmentalist of the OK city bombing variety. Concerned, yes, feared, hardly.
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,823 posts, read 23,340,116 times
Reputation: 6541
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Are you suggesting that veterans care at the VA hospitals are not a military related expenditure? Are you suggesting that Homeland Security is not a military expenditure?
That is precisely what I'm stating, not suggesting. The Veterans Administration administers to FORMER military veterans, but it is not under the Department of Defense, and therefore NOT military.

The Department of Homeland Security is a completely different Department, with a completely different Secretary, and most certainly NOT military. If it isn't under the authority of the Secretary of the Department of Defense, then it can not be military.

Quote:
The term "department"', when used with respect to a military department, means the executive part of the department and all field headquarters, forces, reserve components, installations, activities, and functions under the control or supervision of the Secretary of the department. When used with respect to the Department of Defense, such term means the executive part of the department, including the executive parts of the military departments, and all field headquarters, forces, reserve components, installations, activities, and functions under the control or supervision of the Secretary of Defense, including those of the military departments.
US Code, Title 10, Subtitle A, Part I, Chapter 1, Section 101a(6)

With regard to the Coast Guard, while they are not in the service of the Department of the Navy they fall under the authority of the Secretary of Homeland Security and are used for law enforcement and rescue purposes. They are not military while under the Department of Homeland Security. If the Secretary of the Navy so chooses, he can bring the Coast Guard under his control. At which time the Coast Guard becomes a military organization. It is similar to the National Guard with dual roles and shared authority.

Last edited by Glitch; 11-19-2007 at 11:41 PM..
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:37 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,290 posts, read 87,078,539 times
Reputation: 55549
great post. when i get some rep to spend ill give you some.
yep, somebody got their hand in the cookie jar.
"stop hey whats that sound, everybody look whats goin down"
(sing it) buffelo springfield, for what its worth
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:39 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,140,533 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
That is precisely what I'm stating, not suggesting. The Veterans Administration administers to FORMER military veterans, but it is not under the Department of Defense, and therefore NOT military.

The Department of Homeland Security is a completely different Department, with a completely different Secretary, and most certainly NOT military. If it isn't under the authority of the Secretary of the Department of Defense, then it can not be military.



US Code, Title 10, Subtitle A, Part I, Chapter 1, Section 101a(6)
And military veterans come from where? Would there be a need for a VA if we didn't have a military? Ipso facto, without one you don't have the other, their connection is intrinsic. As to its authority, I could care less that its authority is derived from the executive branch but that it is funded by the DOD.

Either way, this was also based upon last years budget and does not even account for the further gross begging of our pathetic commander in chief for more funds on his yet another mismanaged endeavor paid for by the sweat and blood of soldiers he could only in his wildest dream pretend to understand and the tax payer dollars from a people who hopes to never understand.
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