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Old 11-24-2013, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
37,143 posts, read 38,811,579 times
Reputation: 59503

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The people who post here aren't the know-nothings. I'm interested in why intelligent people are okay with giving the government control over some proposed, current or former individual decisions. It's not just healthcare. But things like what you and your kids can eat, drink or wear, what you can and can't do with your own property, what you can and can't say in public, where your kids go to school, what you drive, what your kids wear when they ride their bikes, etc. Are you afraid of making mistakes with your life and your children's lives so you don't want the responsibility of making the decisions? It's easier if the government does it for you? Do you need rules/laws in order to figure out how to function? Or is it that you are uncomfortable when everyone in society isn't exactly alike in what they say or do? You want everyone to be the same so you don't feel like an oddball?

For example, I'm trying to figure out the logic that goes with a woman has a right to say or do what she wants with her body unless it involves having a supersized drink, eating trans fats. or not wearing a helmet when she rides her motorcycle. I'm not saying she can't come to the same conclusions, only asking why she's okay with someone telling her she can't do those things if she's okay with making her own decision on abortion. Telling your kids what you have to put in their brown bag lunch from home or how high you can set your thermostat. When you can run your dishwasher. How much mileage your car has to get. What kind of light bulbs you can buy. Etc...I don't get why you just go along with it all even if you would do those things on your own.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,893 posts, read 15,538,577 times
Reputation: 3953
Any "personal decision" that actually affects more than a single person is no longer exclusively personal.

Such is the foundation for all morality.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,031 posts, read 33,808,771 times
Reputation: 7865
What's the OP's point of view on a woman's right to choose?
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Alaska
6,977 posts, read 5,178,830 times
Reputation: 4370
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
What's the OP's point of view on a woman's right to choose?
Just answer the question and quit babbling..
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:37 AM
 
28,589 posts, read 16,900,030 times
Reputation: 19199
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Any "personal decision" that actually affects more than a single person is no longer exclusively personal.

Such is the foundation for all morality.

The above is what liberals really think. In effect, liberals believe in the rights of the "collective" over the individual in any case, regardless of law.

This belief is a cornerstone of liberal thought that has an interesting corollary- that the "collective" knows what it is best for the individual as well.

We, as conservatives, believe that the "rights" of the collective should not trump the individual, and that the rights of the "collective" is a compilation of individual rights and personal liberties.
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Old 11-24-2013, 10:42 AM
 
7,051 posts, read 3,726,404 times
Reputation: 5189
LauraC - we need more people like you in our country. Keep asking these questions.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:06 AM
 
4,838 posts, read 4,028,326 times
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None of those things listed bother me. They're insignificant. My state banned indoor smoking. I can choose not to go to the bars. Seat belt laws, not a problem. Even when there wasn't a law, I still buckled up. You're stupid not to do it. Super size drinks, big deal. Get two smaller ones. Course, that law isn't in effect so it's irrelevant. Helmets, again, your own safety & the safety of your kids on bikes. You'd be stupid not to do it so a law should not affect you. Why is it ok to have laws telling me who I can & cannot marry?
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:11 AM
 
Location: USA
5,633 posts, read 5,123,856 times
Reputation: 3539
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
For example, I'm trying to figure out the logic that goes with a woman has a right to say or do what she wants with her body unless it involves having a supersized drink, eating trans fats. or not wearing a helmet when she rides her motorcycle. I'm not saying she can't come to the same conclusions, only asking why she's okay with someone telling her she can't do those things if she's okay with making her own decision on abortion. Telling your kids what you have to put in their brown bag lunch from home or how high you can set your thermostat. When you can run your dishwasher. How much mileage your car has to get. What kind of light bulbs you can buy. Etc...I don't get why you just go along with it all even if you would do those things on your own.
This may be a shock, but not all of us liberals agree on these things. Bloomberg's soda cap wasn't even popular in New York City. You're looking for some kind of argument, but I can't sit here and defend things that I don't agree with.

I think each of these things might sound like a good idea on their own to some well-intentioned individual in power, but obviously when combined together, it starts looking ridiculous.
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:13 AM
 
5,633 posts, read 4,835,600 times
Reputation: 3855
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
The people who post here aren't the know-nothings. I'm interested in why intelligent people are okay with giving the government control over some proposed, current or former individual decisions. It's not just healthcare. But things like
• what you and your kids can eat, drink or wear,
I don't really think this needs to be controlled by government, as far as the supersized sodas and whatnot. Instead of a supersized cup, I'll just drink three medium cups. Nothing is fixed. That's dumb.
However, I see no problem with requiring food producers to label their foods with exactly what is in them, and pertinent health info. You cannot proclaim that everyone should be responsible for themselves, needs to educate themselves, then rail against the very thing that would educate them. Many people have no idea that letting your two-year-old polish off a family size bag of Cheetos is not good. The two-year-old doesn't know any different, and can't make decisions.
I guess by "wear", you mean helmets? Or do you mean having their jeans at their knees? As far as helmets, having an accident with or without a helmet could place undue requirements on the people who would have to scrape you off the highway. It's not just a personal thing. And as for children wearing helmets, I'm a little torn on this. This goes back to not everyone being educated enough.
• what you can and can't do with your own property,
"Your own property" is an imaginary line drawn out in some documents. There is no physical barrier between your property and someone else's. And what you do on your property can severely depress someone else's value or cause health concerns. So, no, I see no problem with their being governmental property requirements.
Case in point: there was a guy in Memphis named Prince Mongo. As you might imagine, he was a strange creature. He made it a point to be as obnoxious as he could be to those around him. His front yard, in a nice, quiet neighborhood, became filled with headless dolls, all sorts of spinny things, toilets, coffins hanging from trees, etc. Fairly minor stuff, but this could cause his neighbor to not be able to sell his house.
Now, should you be able to move into an upscale neighborhood then run your garbage-sifting business out of your front yard? Sorry, no.
• what you can and can't say in public,
Unfortunately, many people need this restriction, but that's my opinion. If you want to stand on a corner with a sign that rails against gay marriage, whatever. But if you're our on a street corner in front of a toy store yelling an endless stream of profanities at all the families who walk by, I have no problem with you being stopped.
• where your kids go to school,
You can choose for your kids to go to another school. It's called private school. And for many public schools, they have lotteries for open spaces in schools outside your zone. But, having a free-for-all public school system would be a nightmare.
That being said, I do agree that we need to figure out a way to group high-achieveing students together so that they can push them harder.
• what you drive, How much mileage your car has to get.
You can drive whatever you want, as long as that vehicle meets emissions guidelines. Your emissions affect other people. So sorry, you should not be allowed to do whatever you want here. Go spend a day in downtown Manila and tell me that it doesn't matter. As for mileage, burning a lot of gas usually means more pollution. Again, this affects others.
• how high you can set your thermostat. When you can run your dishwasher. What kind of light bulbs you can buy.
Government supplies much of the power and water systems in this country, which I'm okay with. And power and clean water isn't boundless. There is a supply. And you can't just flick a switch and meet immediate demand with new supply. It takes years and millions or billions of dollars. So sometimes use needs to be restricted. During a drought, watering your 5-acre lawn might not be possible, as you are using an inordinate amount of water that is needed by the community as a whole. Sorry.

Quote:
what your kids wear when they ride their bikes, etc. Are you afraid of making mistakes with your life and your children's lives so you don't want the responsibility of making the decisions? It's easier if the government does it for you? Do you need rules/laws in order to figure out how to function? Or is it that you are uncomfortable when everyone in society isn't exactly alike in what they say or do? You want everyone to be the same so you don't feel like an oddball?
Because what you do is not necessarily in a vacuum, as much as you might want to believe it is. Some things, as mentioned above, are dumb. Some things, while you might think they mean nothing or that others should just look the other way, actually do affect other people. You don't get to choose in this situation, or you can choose but might have consequences. Sometimes it has nothing to do with telling you how to live your life by your own rules, but telling you how to work within the society as a whole.

Quote:
For example, I'm trying to figure out the logic that goes with a woman has a right to say or do what she wants with her body ...if she's okay with making her own decision on abortion.
Abortion is obviously a touchy subject. Some people don't want it at all, some people are fine with it the day before birth. I've even seen someone advocate for doing it after birth. I don't believe in late-term abortion, or even anything after 12 weeks. At some point, it needs to be decided if you are stopping a lump of cells, or if it's a human. But, that will never, ever be agreed upon by anyone.

Last edited by samiwas1; 11-24-2013 at 12:00 PM..
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:13 AM
 
Location: USA
5,633 posts, read 5,123,856 times
Reputation: 3539
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
The above is what liberals really think. In effect, liberals believe in the rights of the "collective" over the individual in any case, regardless of law.

This belief is a cornerstone of liberal thought that has an interesting corollary- that the "collective" knows what it is best for the individual as well.

We, as conservatives, believe that the "rights" of the collective should not trump the individual, and that the rights of the "collective" is a compilation of individual rights and personal liberties.
That's cute, I guess my right to not have my house pissed on makes me a communist to you.
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