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Some people just develop tunnel vision. They might be able to pontificate on NFL football or their doll collection for hours, but don't know who fought in WWII much less how old the earth is.
What does whether or not God can/did bend/break the laws of this universe have to do with the laws of this universe? All that matters is what the laws are not whether God bent/broke them at some given time.
I'll try to write something later... maybe after a stiff drink.
I'm going to reiterate my point - which is that a large number of people who believe the earth is 6,000 years old don't do science, not because it's hard, but because there's no point in it for them. They've already got it figured out. It's not laziness, it's bliss.
As someone who does believe in God and studies science, I'll disagree with you. You are operating on the assumption that there is some mutual exclusivity here when there is not. I will agree that for most there is no point in doing science but it's not because of religion. I can name several athiests who don't do science. People don't do science because it's hard and our learning it doesn't really impact our every day lives. Most people don't have a reason to study science. Couple that with the fact science is hard and you end up with few people studying science but it has nothing to do with religion. People don't do science because it's hard. I'm weird. I think calculus and physics are fun. Chemistry's getting to be more fun now that I've been teaching it for several years and many of the pieces I didn't see fitting before are starting to fit together. The deeper I go the more I like it. Most people won't put in the time to go that deep. Not because of their religious beliefs but because they just don't want to put in the effort.
For what it's worth, most people won't put in the time to become classical pianists either. That also has nothing to do with religion.
As a teacher I do not see students rejecting science in the name of religion. Every couple of years I get a student who assumes I'm an atheist because I teach science who is shocked to learn otherwise but that's about it (I don't offer this information but every couple of years I get a student who keeps pressuring me to state my beliefs. I have one this year. She's worried I'm going to hell. Sweet kid. She struggles in chemistry but science just isn't her thing.). Kids take my class, do well I my class or do poorly in my class in spite of their religion. Some of the best students I've had had strong religious beliefs. I just don't see religion as being some kind of determining factor in whether kids do well in science or not. Personally, my beliefs have not interfered with the study of science. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the opposite. Being taught in the Jesuit tradition was interesting. They shook the very foundation my faith was built upon but in the end something stronger was built.
I don't pretend to know the mysteries of the universe. I know that what I know wouldn't fill a thimble so to declare that I have any kind of answer would be ridiculous. I'm not claiming to have answers. I'm only stating that it doesn't matter how old someone thinks the world is....whether it was created in an instant...or is billions of years old... The path to where we are not is not what is important. That we are here now is.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 12-02-2013 at 06:24 PM..
I'm living proof you can both believe in God and study science. One does not negate the other.
The charge was that the reason the US lags in science is because of religious beliefs. What I am is living proof that religious beliefs don't have to stand in the way of science. I'm proof the blame is being put in the wrong place. What's really funny about this whole discussion is I was eduated...in science... beside a few hundred other science majors at the time and thousands since then....in a.....drumroll please..... Jesuit university. The Jesuits are big on science...and religion.
My point is that it's not religion that is keeping us back in science. As a teacher, I'll put my 2 cents in here and say it's laziness. Science is hard. We don't raise our kids to do hard. We raise our kids to chase grades....to memorize long enough to take the test and then forget....we don't expect them to think deeply about anything because that is hard and, as parents, we might not have bragging rights to how brilliant our offspring are if they do hard.....and it might hurt their egos.... Blaming religion is a cop out. One can believe God created the earth and still study science. The two are not mutually exclusive. Laziness and hard, however, are. We're lousy at science because science is hard and we don't do hard.
I definitely agree with you here, It's not that the kids these days are challenged, its that parents do not do their job and instill a good work ethic for school nor do they push their kids these days. I haven't been out of school that long, though I am going for my masters now and when I was in high school, I graduated with honors. That includes honors math and science and although I was terrible at math, I busted my butt, sometimes staying for tutoring for 1-2 hours every day or whenever the teacher would have me.
Kids these days just are too lazy and don't want to do the work. I have taught before and I have kids tell me that learning a foreign language is just not important to them or they will tell me that they have to pass all their classes but their parents don't care about the electives. Well, we cover more in my class than just foreign language but math and english as well, but according to parents, it's a "waste of time". Then when their child does bad, they want a grade change. Guess what? Not going to happen.
I swear, people need to start having a license to have kids.
As someone who does believe in God and studies science, I'll disagree with you. You are operating on the assumption that there is some mutual exclusivity here when there is not. I will agree that for most there is no point in doing science but it's not because of religion. I can name several athiests who don't do science. People don't do science because it's hard and our learning it doesn't really impact our every day lives. Most people don't have a reason to study science. Couple that with the fact science is hard and you end up with few people studying science but it has nothing to do with religion. People don't do science because it's hard. I'm weird. I think calculus and physics are fun. Chemistry's getting to be more fun now that I've been teaching it for several years and many of the pieces I didn't see fitting before are starting to fit together. The deeper I go the more I like it. Most people won't put in the time to go that deep. Not because of their religious beliefs but because they just don't want to put in the effort.
For what it's worth, most people won't put in the time to become classical pianists either. That also has nothing to do with religion.
As a teacher I do not see students rejecting science in the name of religion. Every couple of years I get a student who assumes I'm an atheist because I teach science who is shocked to learn otherwise but that's about it (I don't offer this information but every couple of years I get a student who keeps pressuring me to state my beliefs. I have one this year. She's worried I'm going to hell. Sweet kid. She struggles in chemistry but science just isn't her thing.). Kids take my class, do well I my class or do poorly in my class in spite of their religion. Some of the best students I've had had strong religious beliefs. I just don't see religion as being some kind of determining factor in whether kids do well in science or not. Personally, my beliefs have not interfered with the study of science. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the opposite. Being taught in the Jesuit tradition was interesting. They shook the very foundation my faith was built upon but in the end something stronger was built.
It's not an assumption. Your personal beliefs aside (can you put them aside for the purpose of this discussion?) - it is very difficult to reconcile our scientific knowledge of the Universe as we know it today with the belief that he earth is 6,000 years old. The evidence does not point to that being the facts. God making the whole thing old in an instant notwithstanding.
Jeez, just one discussion on this forum about evolution is evidence enough that for MOST people (who believe in the 6,000 year old earth in particular, not just God in general) there is indeed mutual exclusivity and should be all the proof you need.
Some people just develop tunnel vision. They might be able to pontificate on NFL football or their doll collection for hours, but don't know who fought in WWII much less how old the earth is.
Does everyone need to know everything?
It amazes me when they come up with polls and say we're stupid because we don't know X, Y and Z. Never mind the person in question just might know the rest of the alphabet or know so much about certain things that others look stupid next to them. Compared to the average person I know a lot more math and physical science. I am certain, however, that my knowledge of historical facts is quite sketchy. I'd rather spend my time reading about brane theory, however, that doesn't make me stupid.
The simple fact is if we tried to know everything we'd end up knowing nothing deep enough to really think about it. Even studying one field it's hard to become a master. Trying to know bits of everything is only good for playing Jeopardy.
It's not an assumption. Your personal beliefs aside (can you put them aside for the purpose of this discussion?) - it is very difficult to reconcile our scientific knowledge of the Universe as we know it today with the belief that he earth is 6,000 years old. The evidence does not point to that being the facts. God making the whole thing old in an instant notwithstanding.
Jeez, just one discussion on this forum about evolution is evidence enough that for MOST people (who believe in the 6,000 year old earth in particular, not just God in general) there is indeed mutual exclusivity and should be all the proof you need.
No it's not. More than one poster here has stated that there is nothing to have stopped God from creating a mature world and a mature universe. There is no difficulty here. If we operate on the assumption that God created a mature universe, then the universe is just as it would have been had it taken billions of years to form. Do you think time is God's master?
Personally, I doubt the world is only 6000 years old but, as I said before, I discount the second story of creation because of its resemblance to the Enuma Elish (sp?). The only part I'm worried about is the part that says "God Created". I figure the rest of the story is there to teach us something about ourselves and our relationship with God, however, If I did believe that the world was only 6000 years old, I would assume that God simply made it in mature form and be on my way. This isn't a point to get stuck on no matter what you believe.
That said, I was stuck here for the better part of 10 years before I thought to ask the question "What difference does it make?" and was shocked to realize it makes none. You can even take a literal view of the bible and still believe in science. Science just becomes studying the laws God laid down on the day of creation.
No it's not. More than one poster here has stated that there is nothing to have stopped God from creating a mature world and a mature universe. There is no difficulty here. If we operate on the assumption that God created a mature universe, then the universe is just as it would have been had it taken billions of years to form. Do you think time is God's master?
Oh for God's sake, no pun intended.
It is difficult for OTHER PEOPLE. Not you. Not YOU. This thread is not about YOU.
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One does not negate the other.
