Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I wouldn't, DD. But would you like to be subject to having a tire filled full of gasoline placed over your neck and lit afire? I do believe the Mandela family had some hand in this, right?
And I would think that you, of all people, would get the point. If I were black and lived in South Africa during the days of apartheid? Well, hell yeah, I would have wanted to change things to my and my people (or tribe) benefit. The ANC was not after some sorta "kum ba ya" land of black and white harmony. They wanted to run the country the same way the whites had run it.
Only difference is, the country it turned into was, or rather, isn't, anything at all like the grand promise. Today, it is a third world nation -- or ok, maybe second..but it will get to third on a greased pole.
Was the apartheid system better? I honestly don't know. Do you? But I DO know that the crime rate skyrocketed, that jobs were lost, and blacks are suffering under it. South Africa is going the way of Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia)?
Can any of this be denied?
South Africa is no where near the wretched state of Zimbabwe, lol. It had been averaging about 4% in GDP growth the decade before 2008 and it's GDP per capita has been steadily climbing at more or less the same rate as before Apartheid. I'll agree that that the end of apartheid brought about a fair degree of "system shock" but South Africa's situation is incomparable to Zimbabwe's. South Africa has it's issues, but it's rising. On the other hand, Zimbabwe is more or less in an economic black hole.
[quote=Neuling;32602531]Today? We were talking about SA's during apartheid. Most of them had no electricity, no running water, no adequate housing, etc. So, yes, they were definitely treated like second-class people.
I am sure that is true. But were they better off than in the country they fled from? I don't know why reality is so hard to face other than some warped form of political correctness. Why would black Africans go to South Africa if they didn't think life might -- just might -- be better than where they left? It makes no sense otherwise.
Quote:
I don't understand why you think that the fact that some Africans immigrated to SA during apartheid means that the system was somehow OK.
Like I said originally, I am neither happy nor unhappy about the end of apartheid. But some people seem to believe that a form of segregation is the worst sin in the world. Why wouldn't the whites want to keep the country they created; again, from nothing at all and built it into something that stood out as a first world nation?
When you ask was it "ok"?...well, that is a deflection (IMO). Ok for who? I could rejoin by asking if blacks are any better off now that the ANC took over? Is THAT ok?
Quote:
I live in Portugal, there are people coming here from third-world countries, where no Portuguese people would want to move. Still, does that change the fact that Portugal is in bad shape? No, it only means that those people pick the lesser evil.
And that is my general point! Earth is not heaven, so the lesser of the evils have to be picked. And apparently many blacks felt that apartheid in South Africa was better than where they came from. What were the other choices?
i feel that he helped the black people of africa. considering the magnitude of the change he deserves a medal even though many dutch farmers died unjustly at the hand of angry black citizens.
South Africa is no where near the wretched state of Zimbabwe, lol. It had been averaging about 4% in GDP growth the decade before 2008 and it's GDP per capita has been steadily climbing at more or less the same rate as before Apartheid. I'll agree that that the end of apartheid brought about a fair degree of "system shock" but South Africa's situation is incomparable to Zimbabwe's. South Africa has it's issues, but it's rising. On the other hand, Zimbabwe is more or less in an economic black hole.
Yes, I agree you have a certain point...but at the same time, much of this is due to foreign aid being pumped in. And no question that there is a lot of censorship in the media as to what is really taking place. Crime rates skyrocketed and those not fortunate enough to belong to the ANC were targets. Land previously owned by whites were routinely confiscated and, often, the land owners, murdered. It was not very pretty.
But again, all in all, I agree that it hasn't sunk to the level of Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia).
i feel that he helped the black people of africa. considering the magnitude of the change he deserves a medal even though many dutch farmers died unjustly at the hand of angry black citizens.
Yes, he helped some, so long as they were part of his faction (or his wife's). But how was the change any better than what pre-existed? Neither was good, I don't suppose, but it is extremely relative. How many blacks died as a result of "necklacing"? The appalling murders of fellow blacks exceeded ANYTHING ever done in the apartheid days.
So the blacks were just sitting around with their thumbs up their butts doing absolutely nothing, huh? Just living meaningless lives until the good old white man arrived, eh?
What were they doing? Before the Boers arrived, what kind of nation existed? The blunt truth is that it was a stone-age culture, pretty much. The wheel hadn't even been invented.
Quote:
And I don't know how many times I have to disabuse you guys of the notion that subjugation and tyranny by Europeans in Africa was ok just because tribes were constantly at war.
You can roll your eyes all the way around, but there is nothing to disabuse about. History speaks for itself. I know it is upsetting, and I might even feel just like you do if I were in your place or, as said before, a black South African. Show me just one instance of systematic murder and torture and rape under white South African rule. On the other hand? There are countless under that of the ANC.
And once again, if it was so horrible, why did blacks from black-ruled countries, try to enter South Africa?
Quote:
Europeans tribes had JUST AS MUCH tribal war and probably much worse. In fact, they were having tribal wars well into the 1940's. The European Tribal War that went from 1938-1945 alone killed 50-60 million people so you tell me who specializes in tribal wars? And that was after another European Tribal War that went from 1914-1918 that killed about 10 million.
What in the world are you talking about? WHAT European tribal warfare? As in the sense of true "tribes." This makes no sense at all. The only thing I can figure is you must be somehow alluding to the era of the world wars, and the facists and communist purges. Which, incidently, Mandela proclaimed himself to be (that is, a committed Marxist).
I say again, I take no pleasure whatsoever in presenting things like this. In fact, it even saddens me on some levels. History is shot full of atrocities. And a simple truth is that the black-ruled countries in Africa have the worst consistent human-rights violations in history. Even today, slavery still exists in some areas...
Thus, I am NOT going to pretend something is some way it wasn't and/or isn't, just because it is politically correct to do so.
What were they doing? Before the Boers arrived, what kind of nation existed? The blunt truth is that it was a stone-age culture, pretty much. The wheel hadn't even been invented.
You can roll your eyes all the way around, but there is nothing to disabuse about. History speaks for itself. I know it is upsetting, and I might even feel just like you do if I were in your place or, as said before, a black South African. Show me just one instance of systematic murder and torture and rape under white South African rule. On the other hand? There are countless under that of the ANC.
And once again, if it was so horrible, why did blacks from black-ruled countries, try to enter South Africa?
What in the world are you talking about? WHAT European tribal warfare? As in the sense of true "tribes." This makes no sense at all. The only thing I can figure is you must be somehow alluding to the era of the world wars, and the facists and communist purges. Which, incidently, Mandela proclaimed himself to be (that is, a committed Marxist).
I say again, I take no pleasure whatsoever in presenting things like this. In fact, it even saddens me on some levels. History is shot full of atrocities. And a simple truth is that the black-ruled countries in Africa have the worst consistent human-rights violations in history. Even today, slavery still exists in some areas...
Thus, I am NOT going to pretend something is some way it wasn't and/or isn't, just because it is politically correct to do so.
This is a truly laughable post.
You just can't come clean no matter what. You're a white supremacist...plain and simple.
Again I ask, were the African people of that land simply living meaningless lives until the white man showed up?
Then you're denying that the world wars in Europe were tribal wars, which they DEFINITELY were.
And then the final whammy...saying that the white government didn't commit major human rights atrocities in South Africa.
So why in the hell is there a Truth and Reconciliation commission?
Hell, yes, I am serious. Geez. Sarcasm/irony doesn't change it. I know, somewhat, about that organization, but it is difficult to discern the origins and agenda going by research on it. In any event, some swear by it and some swear at it, as the saying goes...
There are always "committees" set up for public relations sake...but the key issue is what changes? And no way around that South Africa has degenerated into a cesspool. I don't like it any more than anybody else does, and have repeatedly said so.
But still, where is the record of systematic white upon black murders, rapes, and torture that even come close to what exists today in South Africa? No one seems to be able to provide one. Hell, I wouldn't have liked to be black in apartheid South Africa, and I am sure I would have found a way to resist and help take over the country for my own "tribe". And that was what it was; a power grab, not an idealistic mission of black and white harmony.
Thus, no sugar-coating and singing his praises changes what the country rapidly became and has turned into. The past is not always pleasant and Mandela and his minions were far from saints. Here are a couple of links:
Anyway, I don't feel any animosity with anyone here, and hope this can remain a topic where people of different ideas and outlooks can discuss/debate in a civilized manner, even in disagreement.
Of course, as it is, I think I have had it for the evening and am going to eat and hit the sack. Y'all all have a good night!
You just can't come clean no matter what. You're a white supremacist...plain and simple.
Again I ask, were the African people of that land simply living meaningless lives until the white man showed up?
Then you're denying that the world wars in Europe were tribal wars, which they DEFINITELY were.
And then the final whammy...saying that the white government didn't commit major human rights atrocities in South Africa.
So why in the hell is there a Truth and Reconciliation commission?
Oh hell, I caught this one right before logging out. So sorry you are reduced to lashing out in frustration, Desert Detroiter. And that is all it is.
Your "white supremacist" comment is what is truly laughable. I honestly thought that you were a better debater than that. I guess I was wrong.
I am not even going to dignify your ridiculous accusation with a reply. If it makes you feel better about yourself to call me a "white supremacist" or "racist" then go ahead and scream it until you are blue in the face. Wholesale insults like this are usually the last resort for those who have no other recourse of reply. So big freaking deal if that makes you feel better. Again, I expected a more articulate rejoinder from an intelligent and reasonable man like you. And I say that sincerely, and you should know I do.
How about if I called you a "black supremacist" because you seem to believe that black rule is better than white rule? It makes about the same amount of sense, and I would never do that, in any event. Let's face it, all factions want to control a given country, especially those in Africa with its history. That is really the essence of the point I am trying to make. Whites wanted to control what they had created, and blacks wanted to do the same when they had the chance to do so. I would be the same way as would almost all of us.
The whole "lets all get along and love one another" thingy that became the myth of Mandela was a creation of fantasy and American liberal idealism -- and censorship -- pure and simple. And what transpired verified it. But of course, that one has become totally glossed over in the mainstream media.
I answered every single one of your questions, and just because they don't square with the rolling over and playing dead in the face of the "angry black man" that some seem to expect doesn't change my opinion at all. You don't know a thing about me, and I have had more black students during my teaching career who have nominated me for awards than I can count...and that I need to explain -- for as that goes, anyway. The record speaks for itself.
You are pissed off -- IMO -- because you can't answer my queries. Depending on what one defines as "human rights violations", then every single nation that has ever existed has "committed" them. The United States included (such as in breaking treaties with the Indians). But it becomes a matter of relativity. In this case, why did so many blacks come into South Africa even in the worst days of segregation, and why has the nation steadily deteriorated under ANC rule? And hell, other blacks are bearing the brunt of it today. I can't help the truth, even though some would love to do just that.
Yes, I am denying that the world wars were "tribal wars" in the sense we are speaking of here. They were purges and horrific for sure under both the Nazi and communist rule, no question. Appalling! But they really ideological, that is, the "purge" of those who didn't go along with the regime in control. It didn't make much difference which "tribe" one belonged to; if they opposed the dictator, then they were toast, whatever race or religion or creed. Often, literally. But to be fair, please explain a bit further as to which European tribes you are speaking of during the said era and within the same nation?
But anyway, again, your reply is noted. And time to call it a night, for real!
Last edited by TexasReb; 12-13-2013 at 11:25 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
