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Old 10-20-2014, 10:55 AM
 
7,359 posts, read 5,464,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Wrong!
Even WITH the fairly easy guideless there would have been no housing crash IF the guidelines established by HUD had been FOLLOWED. Had the guidelines been actually followed those loans were not that risky.
Problem is - easy as the guidelines were - they were not even FOLLOWED.
The root of the problem is that the folks making loans had NO INTENTION of keeping those loans. They made the loans with the INTENTION of simply selling them to someone else. Therefor they had no "skin in the game" and DIDN'T CARE of the folks could actually MAKE THE PAYMENT (that would be SOMEONE ELSE'S problem). Their only concern was making as many loans as possible as fast as possible - what happened after that was not their concern. Thus they DIDN'T follow the guidelines.
THAT was the problem - NOT the policies set in place by HUD. Had the HUD policies been followed, we wouldn't have had the problem - but policies WERE NOT FOLLOWED by the lenders.
You can't blame the guidelines when the guidelines WERE NOT EVEN FOLLOWED.


Ken
You smack your forehead and say "Wrong!" but all you did was present your own opinions and really have nothing to stand on when taking such a know-it-all attitude. You provided absolutely nothing to back up your contention that the guidelines weren't followed, nor that not following them led to the defaults, nor that the defaults wouldn't have happened anyway if they had been followed. If you're going to take such a superior attitude then you should present something more than unsupported conjecture.
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Old 10-20-2014, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,488,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah - NONE of which changes the fact that the GUIDELINES WERE NOT EVEN FOLLOWED.
Once again - you cannot blames guildelines when those guidelines were not even followed.


Ken
but the guidelines (set by HUD) were followed

it started because of ...""""fairness"""""

people with less than desirable credit were complaining.... I am sure you are smart enough to research ''redlining''

so in an effort to be """fair""" Clinton directed his chief of hud to change the rules

this caused the exotic mortgage market to explode

lenders DID NOT want to lend to people who BY STANDARDS could not be counted on to PAY THEIR MORTGAGE......but the GOVERNMENT MANDATED it

realtors were more than happy to comply...much better commission on a 400k house than a 150k house

I saw it happen in real life...in 1992 my parents were thinking of selling their house...realtor told them they would be LUCKY to get 130k......they sold in 2005...for 460k....the same small house with a 30 year old furnace and old style leaky doublehung windows..... over triple in a matter of 13 years


you can blah, blah all you want...the housing bubble/bust was a government mess, brought on in the name of """"FAIRNESS""""

Last edited by workingclasshero; 10-20-2014 at 11:35 AM..
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Old 10-20-2014, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,488,320 times
Reputation: 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah - NONE of which changes the fact that the GUIDELINES WERE NOT EVEN FOLLOWED.
Once again - you cannot blames guildelines when those guidelines were not even followed.


Ken
do YOU DENY the links.....not from some left/right wing thinktank...but directly form the NEW YORK TIMES NEWS


Defending Home Turf From Attack; Fannie Mae Is Facing Assault By House Panel and Business Rivals
By RICHARD W. STEVENSON
Published: April 22, 2000

WASHINGTON, April 18— ..........
The sharp reaction in the bond market was in large part a function of forecasts that Fannie Mae and the other such enterprises would within three years have more debt outstanding among investors and financial institutions than the United States Treasury.

Unlike Treasury debt, the debt issued by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to help finance mortgages is not backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government. But investors have long perceived that the government has made an unwritten commitment to treat Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as too big to fail.

.................. As a result, many banks have made such debt a big part of their capital base, a situation that has left some regulators and members of Congress speculating about the implications for the financial system if Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac were to get into serious financial trouble.

Even as he stressed that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were healthy and profitable, Mr. Baker said that to ignore ''the potential impact of a misstep'' by one or both of the companies ''is to flirt with a potential disaster.''

Should the government-sponsored housing companies continue to grow unchecked in size and influence, Mr. Baker told the hearing, the government might ultimately find itself on the hook for a bailout that would be financed out of ''your constituent's wallet.''

Fannie Mae quickly responded that the comparison to a high-risk hedge fund was ''unfounded,'' and that the company exceeds all regulatory standards for financial strength.

Invoking the defense that his company has used successfully for years, David Jeffers, a spokesman for Fannie Mae, said that a proposal by Mr. Baker to tighten regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac ''is going nowhere because it is antihousing.''



Defending Home Turf From Attack - Fannie Mae Is Facing Assault By House Panel and Business Rivals - NYTimes.com

quite revealing from 2000...

-------------------------

125% Loan: Blessing Or Bane?
By JAY ROMANO
Published: July 13, 1997
RESPONDING to the seemingly insatiable demand by borrowers for ever more exotic forms of credit, some aggressive lenders have brought to market a rather unconventional mortgage product: the 125 percent loan.

With such a loan, homeowners -- even those with less-than-pristine credit -- can borrow up to 125 percent of the market value of their homes by pledging collateral that doesn't exist.

Lenders who make such loans say they are effective credit tools that can be used by homeowners to raise cash for unexpected expenditures, get out from under high-interest credit-card debt or pay for home improvements that will in turn increase the owner's equity.

''The underwriting criteria (from the government) are actually more flexible,'' Mr. Levy said. ''They allow more dinks on your credit and a more narrow spread between what you make and what you pay out.''

And that is just what concerns Mr. Bader of Skyscraper Mortgage.

''The person who couldn't qualify for an ordinary home equity loan at 8 percent is now borrowing even more money at 14 percent,'' Mr. Bader said, adding that anyone thinking about taking out such a loan should contemplate the following:

''What happens if you want to sell your property, and you find that what you owe is more than what your property is worth?''
125% Loan: Blessing Or Bane? - Page 3 - New York Times

before bush,, before the glass-stegal repeal



------------------------------



U.S. Proposes Rules to Help House Buyers
Published: March 05, 2000

The federal government has proposed new rules that would make it easier for low-income house buyers to qualify for mortgage loans, a move intended to help blacks and other minorities buy houses.

The proposed rules from the Department of Housing and Urban Development would require two of the largest housing finance companies in the country, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, to increase the percentages of overall loans that they offer to lower-income families from the current standard of 42 percent to 48 percent in 2000 and to 50 percent in 2001.

The companies would be required over the next 10 years to buy $2.4 trillion in mortgages from banks and other lenders to assist the 28 million American families with low and moderate incomes. Many of those families are minorities, housing officials said.

''This rule will greatly expand the supply of affordable housing across the country,'' said Housing Secretary Andrew M. Cuomo.
The companies(fannie/freddie) buy mortgages for homes and apartment buildings from banks, savings and loans and other mortgage lenders, and package and sell the loans to investors. When Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae buy mortgages from lenders, they provide the lenders with cash to issue new mortgages.

Under the higher goals, the companies would buy an additional $488.3 billion in mortgages over the next 10 years for seven million more low- and moderate-income families. The new mortgages would be added to the $1.9 trillion in mortgages for about 21 million families that would have been helped by the current standards.

Mr. Cuomo said that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were cooperating with federal regulators on this issue. The Housing Department said it was reviewing fair-lending practices at Fannie Mae. The two companies can do more, Mr. Cuomo said, and that led to the elevated goals.

The requirements for mortgage purchases were last set in 1995. The goals were up for renewal this year, as required by Congress. The housing administration could have lowered the goals or have left them unchanged.

U.S. Proposes Rules to Help House Buyers - NYTimes.com (U.S. Proposes Rules to Help House Buyers - NYTimes.com)


---------------------------hmmm all moved by Clinton and his 2 chiefs of hud henry Cisneros and Andrew coumo


this from 1999

Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending - NYTimes.com

Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending
By STEVEN A. HOLMES
Published: September 30, 1999


.......... the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

''Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer. ''Yet there remain too many borrowers whose credit is just a notch below what our underwriting has required who have been relegated to paying significantly higher mortgage rates in the so-called subprime market.''

Demographic information on these borrowers is sketchy. But at least one study indicates that 18 percent of the loans in the subprime market went to black borrowers, compared to 5 per cent of loans in the conventional loan market.

In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, does not lend money directly to consumers. Instead, it purchases loans that banks make on what is called the secondary market. By expanding the type of loans that it will buy, Fannie Mae is hoping to spur banks to make more loans to people with less-than-stellar credit ratings.


see the words in bold....very telling

============================

Giving Credit Where Credit Was Denied

Published: June 08, 1997
Giving Credit Where Credit Was Denied - Page 3 - New York Times


............
Mr. Kent received what his lender, GFI Mortgage Bankers, calls its ''no-doc product'' -- as in no documents needed.

''We've created new products for people who have glitches, hairy credit,'' said Abe Eisner, executive vice president of GFI. ''No-doc means all we need is your name, address and Social Security number, depending on your credit history.''

GFI is a barometer for the industry; its subprime lending currently represents about 25 percent of the company's business. Two years ago, it was 10 percent.

--snip-....
One measure of the expanding subprime market is the number of loans that have been packaged and sold as asset-backed securities -- meaning that investors buy shares in those resold loans and then reap the returns as the mortgages are paid off.

--snip--
According to Jay Siegel, a vice president at Moody's Investor Service: ''Subprime loans have exploded from $7 billion in 1992 to $37 billion in 1996 as a sector of the entire securitized conventional loan market.'' That $37 billion, Mr. Siegel said, represents 11 percent of all the conventional loans that were securitized in 1996, up from 1.4 percent in 1992.

But in the last five years, Mr. Hornblass said, ''the growth of the securitization market has meant that lenders sell their loans, in essence, to investors, and get funding at a cheaper rate.

''So, now when they have cheaper funds, they are able to charge borrowers less,'' he said. ''And the money cycle is faster.''

Even quasi-governmental agencies have primed the subprime pump. The Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae) and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac) have recently developed computerized underwriting systems that allow lenders to speedily and reliably evaluate an applicant's credit-worthiness. The loans rejected by the automated system are, by definition, subprime.

''In the past, if a loan was rejected by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac, that was it,'' Mr. Hornblass said. ''They weren't touching that business.

''But now both agencies have set up arrangements with lending companies that buy those subprime loans coming through the automated systems. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae take a fee, the loans get funneled to a lending company that's willing to buy them, package them and then sell the securities to investors.''

The agencies have also, for the first time, become guarantors of subprime loans. In fact, on May 21, Freddie Mac agreed to guarantee the securitization of $227.3 million in subprime loans originated by the First Union Home Equity Bank.

Several industry analysts point out that the trend toward subprime lending has been a boon to the nation's affordable housing movement. ''There are more subprime opportunities that dovetail well with C.R.A.-required lending,'' said Mr. Gumbinger.

C.R.A. is the Community Reinvestment Act, a law passed by Congress in 1977 to combat red-lining -- the systematic policy of banks to avoid making loans in poor communities. The law requires Federally regulated banks and savings and loans, but not mortgage banks, to ''help meet the credit needs of communities in which they are chartered.'' If one of those lenders applies to Federal regulatory agencies for a merger or a new charter, it must demonstrate that it has originated a sufficient number of loans in low- and moderate-income neighborhoods.

According to data provided by Douglas Duncan, a senior economist at the Mortgage Bankers Association of America, 19.2 percent of the nation's home loans in 1993 went to minority-group members. By 1995, that share had risen to 22.2 percent.

Across the country, hundreds of lenders -- from major banks to so-called ''mom-and-pop'' operations -- have moved into the affordable housing market, prompted by a network of community development groups that have pioneered the rehabilitation of swaths of poor neighborhoods



hmmmmmmmm

...In 1995, the Clinton Administration changed the law governing GSEs' mission -- the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) -- to encourage more lending in poor neighborhoods. ......... With the 1995 change, the government published each bank's lending activity and started giving bank ratings based primarily upon the amount of lending it performed in poor neighborhoods. These changes empowered community organizations, such as ACORN, to pressure banks to increase lending activities in poorer neighborhoods -- which involved reducing mortgage loan standards -- or face backlash from those organizations' private and political associates. For instance, if Chase made 100 mortgages in a poor Chicago district, and Countrywide 150, the government would likely give Chase a lower CRA rating, and community organizers could pressure politicians to make it more difficult for Chase to get licensed to do full ranges of business in new areas of the country. Low CRA ratings could also disadvantage Chase with regard to government lending programs and make it more difficult for Chase to participate in mergers and acquisitions through Fannie Mae, the government controlled banks' mortgage lending activity rates.

As long as Fannie was willing to buy these mortgages, banks had no problem lowering their standards if necessary, making the loans and selling them off to Fannie Mae. Banks could even buy the mortgages back from Fannie Mae, with Fannie's payment guarantee, thereby eliminating the credit risk (as long as Fannie was government backed). Now, if the US federal government is behind Fannie - and the government has a perfect credit record - there is really little worry for banks, so they might as well make all the mortgages Fannie Mae is willing to buy, and purchase all the guaranteed debt Fannie puts up for sale. However, to the extent investors ever believed Fannie was just like any other company -- without the US government guaranteeing its debts, at least in bulk -- well that would be a different story. The risks involved would go from theoretically near zero, to well, who knows... Throughout the Congressional debate on GSE regulations in 2003-2005, senior Congressional Democrats repeatedly inferred -- even directly stated on at least one public occasion -- the US federal government would bail Fannie Mae out if required.

In written law, the US government only 100% guarantees Ginnie Mae. The other major two GSEs, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, exist in more of a grey area. Nothing explicitly states the federal government is 100% behind them, but it has always been implied. That is why statements of top government officials in the run up to the bubble are so very important, as are actions like the US President personally appointing Fannie's CEO and directors.

From 1993-1999, the Clinton Administration replaced many of Fannie Mae's key executives, including the CEO, the CEO's number two, and nearly half the board of directiors. As a government sponsored enterprise (GSE), the President had the authority to make those appointments. The board, which increasingly consisted of Presidential appointments, then worked with the new CEO to change Fannie Mae executives' salary structures in order to incentivize them to reach higher mortgage targets. More specifically, the board promised senior executive millions in bonuses each year as long as Fannie reported certain earnings figures. Just a quick reminder... Fannie's ability to reach earnings targets is directly related to the number of mortgages it buys, as long as those mortgages do not default or as long as Fannie executives do not recognize negative changes in the payment flow




go ahead Ken...read it.....each any everyone of these links is NYT and before bush...and shows GOVERNMENT DIRECTING this......you can blah, blah all you want...you can also admit the truth

quit trying to appease the government...they aint your friend
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Old 10-20-2014, 11:26 AM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,210,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
Sure - because the IMPACT of NOT DOING SO - would hurt EVERYONE (not JUST the people who made the loans). It's sucks, but that's the REALITY.

Ken
No it wouldn't. Many banks were allowed to fail. Life went on. Nothing makes one bank more special than another outside of who you know and where they are placed.
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Old 10-20-2014, 11:29 AM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,210,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor View Post
So - last week you were going on and on about about how the Fed was claiming it was going to NOT end QE as scheduled because a non-voting member said QE shouldn't be ended.
What I said was the words calmed the markets and they went back up.

So, TODAY an ACTUAL VOTING MEMBER of the Fed spoke - and what did he say?

Quote:
"Dallas Federal Reserve President Richard Fisher told CNBC on Monday that recent stock market volatility has not changed his outlook for ending the central bank's bond-buying program "one iota."..."

Correction possible, but Fed exit still needed: Fisher

So, an ACTUAL VOTING MEMBER of the Fed said outright that he's still planning on ending QE on schedule - not just some non-voting member, but someone who ACTUALLY HAS A SAY in whether or not QE ends - says that QE should be over as scheduled (the meeting to make that decision is next week) - and what does the market do?
*yawn*

I'll say it again - QE will be OVER by the end of the year.

Ken
The FED will continue to prop up the markets. I've asked you this over and over with no reply. Why does a market at record or near record levels need propped up at all?
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Old 10-20-2014, 11:39 AM
 
11,086 posts, read 8,545,982 times
Reputation: 6392
The Fed will undertake QE4 aka printing money 4.

The Obama administration will blackmail them into it.
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Old 10-20-2014, 01:55 PM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,216 posts, read 8,119,861 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven_h View Post
A weatherman looking out the window and deciding what the weather will be = Ken seeing a business headline and calling the stock market.

Both meteorology and investing take years of experience to do properly.
You have to admit a lot the economic predictions by the right has fallen way short, especially the run away inflation.
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Old 10-20-2014, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,488,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dv1033 View Post
You have to admit a lot the economic predictions by the right has fallen way short, especially the run away inflation.
depends on your definition of inflation

do you sheeplely follow what the government says of 1-2% per year over the last 6 years???

or do you go to the store and compare prices, and see how much things have gone up???



inflation has been near 10-15% for the last 6years

look at the prices in the stores

have you been to the store

prices are going up, and up

coffee is double what it was just 6 years ago in 2008...over 100% in that 6 years....or 20%per year average

coffee up

sugar up

cotton up

corn up

all other vegetables up

all meats up

almost everything us up



REAL INFALTION IS CURRENTLY ABOUT 10-15% or more...unfortunately the government(from either party) doesnt give us the REAL numbers



it certainly is for every working class person or old person

you think that your utility cost being up is not inflation???

you think your medical/pharm costs being up is not inflation???

you think your clothing costs being up is not inflation???

you think your housing (rent and realestate taxes) being up is not inflation???


you think food costs going up is not inflation???

you think building supply costs (ie home depot) being UP is not inflation???


almost EVERYTHING we use has gone up by at least 10% to in some cases 30% in the last 5 years...and you are going to tell me inflation is "only 2% or less"



have you been to the store???...have you SEEN THE PRICES???? milk is nearly $4 a gallon...meats have gone though the roof...in 2004 a 3lb can of coffee was about $3...today its a 2.2lb can of coffee and its $10...over a 300% increase in less than 10 years

sorry you are too blind to see

you certainly do prove that the sheeple are out there for the slaughter

so are you going to tell me YOU BELIEVE the government TELLING YOU that inflation is at 0-3% when PRICES in nearly everything have risen 10-20% or more????


the 'inflation rate' is not REAL INFLATION (ie COST inflation) that real americans (and seniors) feel with almost everything we buy

costs are going up on almost everything..especially food (which is NOT counted in the 'inflation rate')


Junk fish called Tauplia which was selling in 2008 for 1.28 a pound is now close to 6.00 a pound...Catfish that averaged between 3.49 and 3.99 at 6.00 plus.... Not just one store, they are all similar in price. Paper towels are highway robbery.....deli ham/turkey which I used to get for 2-3 a pound...now 6-9 a pound

couple of Thanksgiving ago ,,Sweet potatoes they were 49 cent/pound...now $1.79/pound

breyers icecream HALF GALLON, was (2008) 2for 5...now its 1.5 quarts and its 4/each(on sale)

Even cooking oil 48 fl oz... went from $2.99 (reg. p about 18 months ago) to $3.69 (sale)... and $4.79 (reg. price)....the 64oz is well over $7 now


.
.
.
.
.
.
....
.
.
..
let me guess you will next say food doesn't count
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Old 10-20-2014, 03:16 PM
 
11,086 posts, read 8,545,982 times
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Those using food stamps don't care how much food costs.
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Old 10-20-2014, 04:25 PM
 
Location: SE Arizona - FINALLY! :D
20,460 posts, read 26,334,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
Perhaps if you hate an honest free market system, this is not the country for you.

What other industries do nationless corporations need to be saved by taxpayers if they are corrupt and wreckless and fail miserably?
Is it only the nationless banks that don't operate under free market principles? Where does it end?

Before they were "too big to fail" but now they control more of our economy than ever before and we are put at even more risk with their corrupt practices. Should we nationalize them if they are to be an integral part of our nation forever and ever?

Do you think it has anything to do with the relationship between these banks and The Federal Reserve that encourages collusion?
There is NO SUCH THING as a true "free market system" - nowhere on the entire planet - not any single nation has such a system - so what's to hate?


Ken
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