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Old 12-23-2013, 08:13 AM
 
18,277 posts, read 7,943,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StillwaterTownie View Post
The middle class is surely on the rise in China. That's where the benefits of America's trickle down economy from the rich people ended up at.
Actually it helped form the basis of their industrial expansion which is soon coming to a close. In order to move the bulk of their people up and into a 1st world middle class consumer economy, it will take a major central shift on their own money creation and distribution. Away from the massive crony industrial/infrastructure expansion, and more directed toward the people with supports, services and the environment. Much like the US right after WW2. China will gradually become less dependent on the US consumer and the USD.

Avoiding the Fall: China's Economic Restructuring: Michael Pettis: 9780870034077: Amazon.com: Books
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:19 AM
 
18,277 posts, read 7,943,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
Bill Gates got to where he was by spending hundreds and hundreds of hours in computer labs when no one else was. He put in time and effort to build something. He didn't sit around complaining about being a 'rent slave' while doing nothing to improve himself.

There is a lesson to be learned by that, isn't there?
This is true, but if he didn't have special opportunities and privileges for computer access he may never have developed as he did. He not only had the opportunity of the right time and the right place, also social position where he was allowed computer access that paid off so enormously.
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
Income stagnation is way behind taxes and our own culture for the why of the barrier to wealth creation.
This I believe to be key, and taxes had every reason to be significantly reduced in/since 2008. Especially payroll taxes.
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
??? Bill Gates was a subsidy kid, geez, did he ever pay one dollar in housing rent in his life? And even I spent hundreds of hours in computer labs.
So did I. I was the world's Airfight champ around 1976 or 7. The world's first online real time air combat simulation. The game formed the core basis of Microsoft's Flight Simulator.

PLATO (computer system) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In fact I've been Hoonose since then. I had to change my log on name otherwise on one would play me.
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:27 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 26,895,383 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
The numbers are a bit dodgy, but the message is decent. Taxation is a barrier to wealth creation, and wealth is about ownership, not income. As far as tax rate in the 50s vs now, Hauser's Law says the rate is irrelevant. From 1935 to 1982, the top marginal rate was somehwere between 70-90%, but Americans paid ~17.5% of GDP in tax. The top marginal rate since 1982 has been between 31-39%, and Americans have paid ~17% of GDP in tax. All taxation is a barrier to wealth creation because every dollar you have taken by the government is a dollar that could have been used more productively (and all the "government am teh awesomez" apologists can spare me, the government does nothing as productively or efficiently as the private sector), but people only accept a certain level of taxation regardless of the rate. Behavior changes and creative ways to receive income are why the tax rate and the actual tax collected don't really match...ever.

But taxes are a generally negative thing. What really holds people back from increasing their ownership of tangible wealth? The shift towards instant gratification and "easy money" of making payments. Take the 30 vs 15 year fixed mortgage. Most people get 30 year loans because the payment is lower. But on average, a 15 year mortgage results in paying 1.5-1.75x the mortgage amount, and a 30 year pays 2.25-2.5x the mortgage amount. Use a $200k mortgage. In 30 years @ 5%, Homeowner_30 pays $461k in principal and interest. In those same 30 years, Homeowner_15 pays $322k in principle and interest. But after year 15, Homeowner_15 can take the money that used to be a mortgage payment, and invest it. Let's say they do that, and get an annual 3% return. When both hit 30, they both own a house, but Homeowner_15 also has ~$400k in invested wealth...all because Homeowner_15 chose a higher monthly payment by roughly $500.

Apply the thinking to everything and then add in the exacerbating effect of taxes, and between Uncle Sam's various forms of forced tribute and our own "instant gratification, make payments" choices, most people simply choose to not accumulate wealth, and income has surprisingly little effect for like 99% of the population, because income simply changes how much interest laiden debt you're capable of accumulating to make sure you save very little. Folks with low incomes accumulate lower levels of debt, but everyone in this instant gratification culture makes sure they save very little, minus those wise few who save as much as possible.

Income stagnation is way behind taxes and our own culture for the why of the barrier to wealth creation.

Taxes are a barrier to buying a home (and thereby building wealth) for many people - that plus an unfree housing market which prohibits the sale of homes these people can afford to buy.
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 83,188,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoonose View Post
This is true, but if he didn't have special opportunities and privileges for computer access he may never have developed as he did. He not only had the opportunity of the right time and the right place, also social position where he was allowed computer access that paid off so enormously.
All you need to do is get a student job in the computer labs and you get special access.
I did that in college so I could have extra time, email and a host of other opportunities.
20 hrs a week and I was allowed to do my studying and homework when not needed.

Lots of compsci students go for those types of jobs.
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:39 AM
 
13,168 posts, read 5,133,706 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
Bill Gates got to where he was by spending hundreds and hundreds of hours in computer labs when no one else was. He put in time and effort to build something. He didn't sit around complaining about being a 'rent slave' while doing nothing to improve himself.

There is a lesson to be learned by that, isn't there?
Bill Gates got to where he is because Gary Kildall spent hundreds and hundreds of hours in computer labs writing the CP/M operating system, which Tim Paterson essentially plagiarized (but made different enough to make QDOS considered a separate product and not CP/M v2.0), which Gates then bought for $50k and renamed MS-DOS, and then convinced IBM to let Microsoft retain the rights to on their PCs

The lesson to be learned from Gates is that if you have $50k saved, and are willing to risk your savings and your ethics (since he knew he was robbing Paterson by dealing with IBM behind his back), and are willing to talk one of the biggest corporations in the world into a retarded error of licensing/copyright, you can become a billionaire. But you gotta have the capital up front....
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:47 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 26,895,383 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
All you need to do is get a student job in the computer labs and you get special access.
I did that in college so I could have extra time, email and a host of other opportunities.
20 hrs a week and I was allowed to do my studying and homework when not needed.

Lots of compsci students go for those types of jobs.

??? Where do you get these 'special access' jobs? I was an undergrad teaching assistant in comp sci and I didn't get special access.
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 83,188,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
??? Where do you get these 'special access' jobs? I was an undergrad teaching assistant in comp sci and I didn't get special access.
I actually worked in the lab and was the one the students came to with computer problems.

20 hours a week. In junior year when I picked my major I went to the lab and asked if they had any jobs right before the semester started. I stayed there for junior and senior year.

Working in the lab they gave me an account separate from my student account.
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:52 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 26,895,383 times
Reputation: 9071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
Bill Gates got to where he is because Gary Kildall spent hundreds and hundreds of hours in computer labs writing the CP/M operating system, which Tim Paterson essentially plagiarized (but made different enough to make QDOS considered a separate product and not CP/M v2.0), which Gates then bought for $50k and renamed MS-DOS, and then convinced IBM to let Microsoft retain the rights to on their PCs

The lesson to be learned from Gates is that if you have $50k saved, and are willing to risk your savings and your ethics (since he knew he was robbing Paterson by dealing with IBM behind his back), and are willing to talk one of the biggest corporations in the world into a retarded error of licensing/copyright, you can become a billionaire. But you gotta have the capital up front....

(edschultz on) HOOOLLLDDD it right there... (edschultz off)

Obvious question: Where did Bill Gates get the $50k?
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