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I'm not going to wade through 10 walls of text from the same person opposing health care reform in the US.
It seems to me to be the height of arrogance and/or stupidity to believe that the USA alone (at least the half that votes for the GOP), of all the developed world, is right on this and everyone else is wrong.
Furthermore, this tiny minority is always eager to provide a slew of cautionary tales of woe about how awful it is in Canada, England, Australia etc and, yet, these countries for some inexplicable reason are so pig-headed that they refuse to trash their hated commie medicine. Every single modern western nation clings to this supposedly failed and unworkable model while the USA goes it alone - the beacon on the hill for the whole globe as their $11900 appendectomy bills (after insurance) and poor people who can't afford treatment only underscore what a success it all is compared to that terrible old national health care.
No, that is moving the goal-posts. The definition of rationing is quite clear....
1] Scarcity of physical resources and a perceived need for their allocation
2] Waiting lists and long waiting times
3] Denial of treatment
4] Discrimination between patients regardless of need
Sources:
Allocating resources when their supply is limited (EIU Healthcare International)
The displacement of the interests of one group of patients by another (Spiers, J., The Realities of Rationing: ‘Priority Setting’ in the NHS, London)
How many of a given intervention will be provided, to whom, at what cost, and under what circumstances (Rationing Health Care, Brit. Medical Bull. 51)
Die kuenstliche Verknappung eines durchaus vorhandenen Angebots --- The artificial curtailment of supply when it is actually available (Cueni, T., Rationalisieren oder Rationieren?)
Try to keep your head in the game, yeah?
Are you denying that Canadians die in ERs?
I sure hope not, because that would be stupid.....
Dying in the ER after waiting 20-34 hours is a distinct possibility, is it not?
I guess it's a good thing Canada has only 30 Million people.
But who's counting?.....
Mircea
Rebuttal:
Are you denying that Americans are dying in ER waiting rooms or while being "dumped" onto other hosptials? I sure hope not that would be stupid.
Dying in the ER after a long wait is a distinct possibility is it not? Dying while pounding on the emergency room doors is also a distinct possibility.
Are you denying that Americans are dying in ER waiting rooms or while being "dumped" onto other hosptials? I sure hope not that would be stupid.
Dying in the ER after a long wait is a distinct possibility is it not? Dying while pounding on the emergency room doors is also a distinct possibility.
Are you denying that Americans are dying in ER waiting rooms or while being "dumped" onto other hosptials? I sure hope not that would be stupid.
Dying in the ER after a long wait is a distinct possibility is it not? Dying while pounding on the emergency room doors is also a distinct possibility.
Oh I know; you'll call this deflecting and just move on won't you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz
Of course he won't address it and accuse you of deflection. You can set your watch by it.
OK, you two, just ignore him. Many of us just scroll right over these posts.
The fact is, anyone can dig up horror stories like link #2 and #3 both in the US and Canada. In #3, the "patient" was arrested for a parole violation at the hospital. There was a lot more going on there than was reported. You also see a lot of "the parent stated", etc, meaning the info hasn't been verified. #4 and 5 are not about ERs, they are about insurance. I have no love for the insurance industry myself, but most of these stories are quite self-serving and don't provide all the information. I couldn't get #1 to open.
OK, you two, just ignore him. Many of us just scroll right over these posts.
The fact is, anyone can dig up horror stories like link #2 and #3 both in the US and Canada. In #3, the "patient" was arrested for a parole violation at the hospital. There was a lot more going on there than was reported. You also see a lot of "the parent stated", etc, meaning the info hasn't been verified. #4 and 5 are not about ERs, they are about insurance. I have no love for the insurance industry myself, but most of these stories are quite self-serving and don't provide all the information. I couldn't get #1 to open.
#1 is a video link to news of a woman finally falling out of her chair in a waiting room at Brooklyns' psych after waiting for 24 hours in that chair for treatment, she then laid on the floor while staff ignored her through her convulsions and ultimate death until fully an hour after her death someone nudged her with their foot.
I selected that post to specifically address Mircea's scurrilous "callous Canada" claims.
Nothing could possibly be more callous than the current debate featuring those who would maintain a system that deliberately leaves millions outside the gate while entrenching that "but it's my money you're using to help them" nonsense.
That is the true art of deflection as practiced by some.
Your post brings reason and sense back to this thread with it's proposition EVERY system has it's problems.
OK, you two, just ignore him. Many of us just scroll right over these posts.
.
Everybody might not agree all the time on everything but what Mircea said about the American hospital association being a sort of monopoly and engaging in price fixing makes sense to me. No doubt the AHA has deep pockets to influence politicians no matter if they are a D or a R.
Everybody is looking out for their personal interests that is the nature, be it you, me a group of people, politicians or business and everybody has the potential to abuse power there just has to be balance in the system so no one becomes too powerful.
The other day on the radio I heard a local known lawyer saying tort reform is a scam that those beholden to business want so business can be less accountable for its actions. That may be true but at the same time that lawyer is looking out for his interests also so he isn't some do gooder taking on those evil corporations using law to reign them in because lawyers and their association tries to influence politicians for personal gain just like the American hospital association does.
He said he'd be happy to see another poster die! I believe that is against the TOS.
You do understand what this means (addressed to weltschmerz):
And you, of all people, know what the protocol is when you think something is against the TOS.
Rather than point it out, which you always seem to do, which is considered off topic...a violation in itself... and further divert the discussion with 1000 more posts that are, REPORT IT!
I'm sure someone mentioned this already in the 30 pages of responses but it should be noted just how screwed up this system is. I'm an actuary and I do this for a living for insurance companies daily. Notice that the tab has Aetna's portion subtracting around 40k...however it's says payments/ADJUSTMENTS. Basically what any insurer will do is call the provider and tell them what the bill should be and then they'll pay a small portion and tell you they've "addressed" 80% of the bill. So they truthfully negotiate about 70 percent of their responsibility and "pay" about 10%..so effectively you pay OOP much more than the insurer.
Notice on the back of the statement it says AETNA PPO PAYMENT and that is only like 6k...the rest is adjustments. That is all Aetna pays...the other amount is the negotiated price they basically take credit for as payment.
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