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I have to agree it does take the cake. I see those who support the status quo or try to stand up for business make excuse after after excuse but never admit that maybe....just maybe corporations are taking them for a ride.
Here are some excuses made some probably true and some just a attempt to be pro corporation and anti government
Excuse one , illegals and welfare drive up costs
Excuse two, America leads the drive in technology and development and that costs
Excuse three, government regulation drives up costs
and now Excuse four, American companies must charge more to Americans because the companies loose money selling it cheaper to others around the world? LOL
never....NEVER do they admit that just maybe corporations and shareholders rape Americans because they can get away with it and pay off politicians? OH NO business could NEVER be the bad guy everyone else always is.
I think most Americans know companies/corporations can be pretty crappy, but having a choice, I'll take working for a crappy corporation, than being coddled and told what to do by evil big government.
Well, consider the source. You ought to see the callous cavalier attitude they have toward their fellow Canadians who died on waiting lists.
They have yet to figure out that spending less is not the same thing as costing less.
Delay, Denial and Dilution: The Impact of NHS Rationing on Heart Disease and Cancer
IEA Health and Welfare Unit
12% of kidney specialists in the UK said they had refused to treat patients due to limited resources .
One study showed that patients accepted for dialysis stacked up this way.....
65 patients per million population UK
98 patients per million population in Canada
212 patients per million population in the US
That is irrefutable proof that healthcare in the UK and Canada does not cost less than healthcare in the US.
However, it does prove their governments spend less, but then spending less does not equate to costing less. I guess those people believe that if your mortgage is $1,100 per month, you can just pay $750 and your mortgage will cost less.
Not one of them has ever addressed those facts.
Their typical response is, "You have people dying from medical errors."
Not having enough kidney dialysis machines? That is not a "medical error," that is a taxation-revenue-funding problem, and it proves healthcare does not cost less in Canada or the UK.
You don't have to worry about socialized medicine.
The decision by the US Supreme Court on the ACA precludes the possibility of the US ever having socialized medicine like Britain's NHS or Sweden's national healthcare system.
Uh, which is good...and speaking of Britain....
Lung cancer treatment waiting times and tumour growth.
Therefore, 21% of potentially curable patients became incurable on the waiting list.
This study demonstrates that, even for the select minority of patients who have specialist referral and are deemed suitable for potentially curative treatment, the outcome is prejudiced by waiting times that allow tumour progression.
Mortality on the waiting list for coronary artery bypass grafting: incidence and risk factors
BACKGROUND: Insufficient capacity for coronary artery bypass grafting results in waiting times before operation, prioritization of patients and, ultimately, death on the waiting list. We aimed to calculate waiting list mortality and to identify risk factors for death on the waiting list.
So, again, we have irrefutable undeniable proof that healthcare in Britain and Sweden does not cost less than healthcare in the US, but it is proof those governments spend less.
Spending less than what healthcare truly really costs, is what creates shortages in resources that leads to waiting lists that results in people dying.
And here's Canada.....
However, only 37% of the procedures overall were completed within the requested waiting time. Interpretation: Patients awaiting cardiac catheterization may experience major adverse events, such as death,...
Americans only wait a few minutes or a few hours for cardiac catheterization. Perhaps a few days when it is not life-threatening. This is the procedure used for angioplasty, where basically they insert a "balloon" in your arteries to clear blockages and potential blockages created by plaque.
How scary is it that Canada is a measly 30 Million people and they can't even drum up enough money to insure Canadians get timely treatment?
Another possibility in addition to the lack of money is that Canadian provincial governments are too incompetent to properly manage the resources they have to ensure timely treatment.
If you want to read more about waiting lists and waiting times, you can read what the Canadian government says....
Thank you for taking the time to research and explain, I did not know a lot of this. I predict co-pays and deductibles for the Canadian system in the near future, there is no way they can sustain the debt their wonderful system is accruing.
I don't think so. Even St. Jude's for crippled children has started charging insurance first. I've never heard of this "free care fund". Most hospitals will try to get the child on Medicaid before they hand out any free care.
Regardless, I doubt an 11 yr old child would be refused.
Right and THIS is exactly what burns me up so badly about the whole scenario! If you don't have insurance, you pay the full bill, or go bankrupt, or it's "written off" by the hospital and in reality they stick it to someone who WILL pay to make up the difference.
The whole system is jacked up, and the ACA has done nothing but make it worse - and line the pockets of Big Business even more.
The premise of this thread is doubtful.
I guarantee critical information is being withheld that would alter how people perceive it. Ignorance by many plays a role, too.
The operand here is "emergency surgery."
Emergency surgery costs more by its very nature than routine scheduled surgeries, yet everyone wants to ignore that fact.
"Overnight" is suspect as well.
If they stayed overnight, then it was not a routine appendectomy. The appendix was perforated, or ruptured, or gangrenous or the appendial base was gangrenous or any number of other complications.
That also hints that the overnight stay was in the ICU, which of course by its very nature, costs more than normal routine hospitalization. A perforated or ruptured appendix with infectious debris in the peritoneal cavity would require ICU to guard against deadly infection.
When the truth is finally known, I'm certain you'll see one or more of the above conditions.
Medically....
Are you denying that Americans are dying in ER waiting rooms or while being "dumped" onto other hosptials? I sure hope not that would be stupid.
No, but then I'm not claiming that a single-payer system would fix the problem either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan
You'll very likely ignore these once again while continuing to bang on about Canada's inferior system.
Oh I know; you'll call this deflecting and just move on won't you?
No, I've addressed them before. I don't have to keep addressing them every time you throw them up.
The Laws of Economics control healthcare. There's no escaping it. There aren't enough resources in terms of medical personnel and medical facilities, which is what causes long waits for anything.
Canadians are not paying the true cost of healthcare. The existence of waiting lists and the fact that Canadians die in the ER is proof that Canadians are not paying the true cost, because if they would be, then there would be no waiting lists and no one would be dying in Canadian ERs.
Spending less does not equal costing less.
If America adopts a single-payer system, like Canada, what changes?
Absolutely nothing.
The Laws of Economics still apply. There's still a shortage of medical personnel and medical facilities and people will be waiting in ERs, and not only will the situation be more severe, Americans will be paying more money and worsen their economic situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz
Of course he won't address it and accuse you of deflection. You can set your watch by it.
Oh, that's rich.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
And what would you know about intelligent discourse? Dodging, denying and deflecting is not intelligent discourse.
Oh, I know, trotting out your medical history as a rebuttal to everything is intelligent discourse, right?
Perhaps you believe that screaming, "Frasier Institute!" rises to the level of intelligent discourse.
Here's a 2nd chance to engage in intelligent discourse.....
...see if you can address the issues without screaming, "Frasier Institute!" and without lying and claiming I work for an insurance company.
Singularly...
Mircea
....the Queen of Deflecting accusing someone of deflecting.
You can't even tell the truth and admit you lied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan
Nothing could possibly be more callous than the current debate featuring those who would maintain a system that deliberately leaves millions outside the gate while entrenching that "but it's my money you're using to help them" nonsense.
And who deliberately created that system?
The Congress, the Presidents, the IRS, the Supreme Court, the several State legislatures and the American Hospital Association.
After......after mind you, that all of the fore-going entities deliberately disenfranchised Millions of Americans with their idiotic policies and monopolistic control, the American Hospital Association comes to the rescue with Medicare.....
"Introduced by various House and Senate sponsors and subject to extensive hearings, the basic framework of part A began to reflect accommodations between the sponsors, the Administration and the American Hospital Association (AHA).
It ranged all the way from principles of institutional reimbursement, which has been pretty thoroughly already worked out in a general way for their own purposes between Blue Cross and the Hospital Association over a period of several years
The American Hospital Associationhas already nominated the Blue Cross organization for its membership, although some member hospitals will undoubtedly elect out of this arrangement. We have proceeded very far in the development of working arrangements with Blue Cross, although no formal approval as a fiscal intermediary has yet been given them."
[bold underline emphasis mine]
Source: Report to Social Security Administration Staff on the Implementation of the Social Security Amendments of 1965, Robert M. Ball Commissioner, November 15, 1965
Of course the Queen of Deflecting will claim that the US Social Security Administration is run by the Frasier Institute and funded by the Koch Brothers.
You might want to get your facts straight about who mucked up the American healthcare system.
And who is so hellbent on maintaining the current system?
We're discussing outrageous profits with no relationship to reasonable margins as evidenced by the stated costs able to be bargained down to less than a third by Insurance Shylocks.
Who sets the prices of healthcare services?
Not insurance companies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dv1033
What would expect when a significant segment of Americans have had to rely on emergency rooms because they don't turn people away.
ERs can legally turn people away.....
The term “emergency medical condition†means— (A) a medical condition manifesting itself by acute symptoms of sufficient severity (including severe pain) such that the absence of immediate medical attention could reasonably be expected to result in— (i) placing the health of the individual (or, with respect to a pregnant woman, the health of the woman or her unborn child) in serious jeopardy, (ii) serious impairment to bodily functions, or (iii) serious dysfunction of any bodily organ or part; or (B) with respect to a pregnant woman who is having contractions– (i) That there is inadequate time to effect a safe transfer to another hospital before delivery, or (ii) that transfer may pose a threat to the health or safety of the woman or the unborn child.
EMTALA definition of ‘stabilized’ To provide such medical treatment of the condition as may be necessary to assure, within reasonable medical probability, that no material deterioration of the condition is likely to result from or occur during the transfer of the individual from a facility, or, with respect to an emergency medical condition described in paragraph (1)(B) [a pregnant woman who is having contractions], to deliver (including the placenta).
Make sure you read the case law associated with EMTALA that even more narrowly defines the definition of "emergency medical condition."
And for the record, gas or a snotty nose does not qualify as an "emergency medical condition."
Quote:
Originally Posted by dv1033
Great. Now only if our income has actually risen in the last several decades.....
Why would they rise?
Are you a developing 3rd World State?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
@Mircea-Your article about ER utilization does not "prove" as you may think it does, that people are abusing health care services.
You are entitled to your opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts.
I never said people abuse healthcare services....you said that.
You can bury your head in the sand as deep as you want, but you cannot alter the reality that the Laws of Economics apply to everything, including healthcare.
You have a shortage of medical personnel and medical facilities in the US.
It has been known since at least 2003 that the Boomer Generation is going seriously tax those resources further.
It is also known that a large percentage of your medical personnel are Silent Generation or Boomers...and so when they start retiring, they will reduce the percentage of medical personnel per population significantly, creating even more shortages.
Doctors are taxed to the max for space, time, and staff, and many are not taking new patients, and they don't care if the patients are paying in cash, gold, diamonds, peanut butter, Medicaid, Medicare or any other health plan coverage.
Expanding coverage will tax resources even more and drive up costs....your own government says so....
1] Technology up to 65%
2] Consumer Demand up to 36%
3] Expanding Health Benefits or Insuring more people up to 13%
4] Healthcare Price Inflation up to 19% (caused by Consumer Demand and insuring more people)
5] Administrative Costs up to 13% (caused by Technology, Consumer Demand and Regulations)
6] Aging/Elderly up to 7%
Source: United States Government General Accounting Office GAO-13-281 PPACA and the Long-Term Fiscal Outlook, January 2013 pp 31-36
Your Medicare Trustees have said the same thing for the last two years....
The Trustees believe that this outcome, while plausible, will depend on the achievement of unprecedented improvements in health care provider productivity. If the health sector could not transition to more efficient models of care delivery and achieve productivity increases commensurate with economy-wide productivity, and if the provider reimbursement rates paid by commercial insurers continued to follow the same negotiated process used to date, then the availability and quality of health care received by Medicare beneficiaries relative to that received by those with private health insurance would fall over time, generating pressure to modify Medicare’s payment rates.
Source: 2012 ANNUAL REPORT OF THE BOARDS OF TRUSTEES OF THE FEDERAL HOSPITAL INSURANCE AND FEDERAL SUPPLEMENTARY MEDICAL INSURANCE TRUST FUNDS, Page 3
You all are going to learn the hard way.....
I'm not going to wade through 10 walls of text from the same person opposing health care reform in the US.
Show us the healthcare reforms in the ACA prohibiting the "Out-of-Network" clause, which would lower healthcare costs for all Americans.
Show us the healthcare reforms in the ACA that prohibit monopolistic hospitals from price-gouging consumers, to protect the American consumer and lower healthcare costs for all Americans.
Show us the healthcare reforms in the ACA that prohibit monopolistic hospitals from illegally colluding to illegally fix prices far above what the Market would bear, and reduce healthcare costs for all Americans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostrider275452
The only question is, why is there a shortage of doctors in Canada?
The same reason a shortage would exist anywhere.
Statistically, only a certain percentage of the population is qualified with the aptitude, skill and intelligence to be a doctor. They're doctors, not baggers at the grocery store. I can teach a chimpanzee to bag groceries.
We all have limitations to our skills and abilities, and no amount of education or training or on-the-job training or seminars, self-help books, positive thinking, magic spells or hand-holding is going to make us be something that we are not or could never be.
Bear in mind that a server who is mediocre or less than mediorce at the Olive Garden isn't going to ruin your life, but a mediocre or less than mediocre doctor could.
I don't think you want someone with a 300 SAT and a 2 on the MCAT cutting you open just because they happened to get $200,000 in government-backed low interest Student Loans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostrider275452
Are there long waiting times for elective procedures/surgeries?
Yes, which is why many Canadians come to the US for those procedures.
Thank you for taking the time to research and explain, I did not know a lot of this. I predict co-pays and deductibles for the Canadian system in the near future, there is no way they can sustain the debt their wonderful system is accruing.
Govt is a master at using liabilities and debt to acquire wealth. I wouldn't assume specifics with out looking at their accounting. They have a very similar system to our CAFR. They seem to use the term AFR, been awhile since I looked. Govt loves creative accounting.
Some people have "most favored poster" status around here, so the TOS isn't very applicable.
I just use the ignore function and proceed on my way.
Since this thread is still going on, I have to say, I agree.
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