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The ONLY way to determine if this is actually happening is to check the ID of the people voting. Even so there are a huge number of indications that it is very probably happening. They have been REPEATEDLY posted and ignored.
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This is just a flat out lie.
This is what I mean with conservatives reality just doesn't matter.
If a poster is going to be this dishonest..... what is the point?
This is what I mean with conservatives reality just doesn't matter.
If a poster is going to be this dishonest..... what is the point?
Exactly what statement above is a lie. I have personally repeated posted report showing convictions for voter fraud, investigations showing how easy it is to commit voter fraud and I am still seeing post stating that none have been posted.
As for the statement that the only way to verify the ID of the person voting is with an ID, if you are calling that a lie please provide a means that works to prevent the fraudulent votes from being cast and works in a timely manner.
I have already shown why the current signature method doesn't work, so you will need to provide an different method.
Exactly what statement above is a lie. I have personally repeated posted report showing convictions for voter fraud, investigations showing how easy it is to commit voter fraud and I am still seeing post stating that none have been posted.
As for the statement that the only way to verify the ID of the person voting is with an ID, if you are calling that a lie please provide a means that works to prevent the fraudulent votes from being cast and works in a timely manner.
I have already shown why the current signature method doesn't work, so you will need to provide an different method.
I don't care about your nonsense.
The lie is that the only way to determine voter fraud is to pass voter ID laws, that is a flat out lie.
The other lie is that voter fraud is an actual problem with American voting, that is a flat out lie.
Exactly what statement above is a lie. I have personally repeated posted report showing convictions for voter fraud, investigations showing how easy it is to commit voter fraud and I am still seeing post stating that none have been posted.
As for the statement that the only way to verify the ID of the person voting is with an ID, if you are calling that a lie please provide a means that works to prevent the fraudulent votes from being cast and works in a timely manner.
I have already shown why the current signature method doesn't work, so you will need to provide an different method.
So if I show you that people can obtain fake IDs, does that mean the photo ID method is also a fail? What if one votes in person and mail in ballot? The photo ID didn't prevent that fraud? What about voter fraud on the collection side of votes? Photo IDs don't stop that.
Basically all photo IDs do is provide people with a false sense of security that photo IDs somehow prevent voter fraud....which has been addressed, there is no proof that voter fraud is rampant to warrant expensive measures to prevent it.
The lie is that the only way to determine voter fraud is to pass voter ID laws, that is a flat out lie.
You posted some valid points about voter ID in a different post, I have address them below. However, I have not seen a post that show a better means of prevent voter ID fraud. So until you can back your claim, calling it a lie is just name calling. I will give you another chance to backup your claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73
The other lie is that voter fraud is an actual problem with American voting, that is a flat out lie.
You need to learn the difference between a lie and a difference of opinion. You say that thousands of cases of voter fraud is not a problem, I say it is. That is an opinion. I say the a system that can be easy breached is an issue you say that is not an issue. These are matters of opinion, not lie. Again name calling will not help your argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78
So if I show you that people can obtain fake IDs, does that mean the photo ID method is also a fail?
Yes it is possible that people can get fake IDs. However, that is still better than nothing. Based on the underling philosophy of your statement, nothing should be improved unless the improvement is perfect. We all know that nothing is perfect, but that shouldn't stop us from making improvements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78
What if one votes in person and mail in ballot? The photo ID didn't prevent that fraud?
That is not the type of fraud that voter ID is trying to stop. There are other method already in place the try to catch that type of fraud. In fact convictions for doing exactly that that is one of the indicators that fraud is occurring.[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78
What about voter fraud on the collection side of votes? Photo IDs don't stop that.
Again, the voter ID laws are not aimed at that type of fraud. There are other methods for detecting that type of fraud.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78
Basically all photo IDs do is provide people with a false sense of security that photo IDs somehow prevent voter fraud....which has been addressed,
So your premise is to not try to improve the current method because the improvement isn't perfect. That we should keep going on with the current flawed method instead of using something better??
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78
there is no proof that voter fraud is rampant to warrant expensive measures to prevent it.
There are many post showing that fraud is occurring. It is your OPINION that it is not rampant. However that OPINION is impossible to prove because methods that would actually detect that fraud are not in place.
Please backup your statement with facts. Many posting have shown that fraud is occurring, please post some links showing that all votes are legitimate.
Other than driving to their front door and handing them one in cracker jack box I'm not sure what else the state could have done to make it easier.
There are numerous cases where getting an ID can become a real chore. This generally happens in the bureaucracy. Wyoming for instance will not accept a US passport. You have to have a certified birth certificate. These may not be available in the persons common name. My own birth certificate has multiple middle names that I do not use. So I can end up with a conflict between my social security card and my birth certificate. Now practically I have other means but I could well have trouble in Wyoming.
The Nevada AG proposed a simple scheme that would keep everybody happy. When you show up to vote if you are not in the DMV data base they would take your picture and put you in there. So after a couple of elections virtually everyone is in the data base and can still vote even if not...The legislature declined the option based on cost and that voter fraud did not seem to exist. I have not heard of any of the ID backers pushing such a scheme. I would think because it would not disenfranchise the desired demographic.
A newspaper did a deep look at voter fraud in southern Florida. Found some. Interesting though that all the fraudulent voters had photo ID....generally a drivers license.
There are numerous cases where getting an ID can become a real chore. This generally happens in the bureaucracy. Wyoming for instance will not accept a US passport. You have to have a certified birth certificate. These may not be available in the persons common name. My own birth certificate has multiple middle names that I do not use. So I can end up with a conflict between my social security card and my birth certificate. Now practically I have other means but I could well have trouble in Wyoming.
The Nevada AG proposed a simple scheme that would keep everybody happy. When you show up to vote if you are not in the DMV data base they would take your picture and put you in there. So after a couple of elections virtually everyone is in the data base and can still vote even if not...The legislature declined the option based on cost and that voter fraud did not seem to exist. I have not heard of any of the ID backers pushing such a scheme. I would think because it would not disenfranchise the desired demographic.
That does sound like a decent solution, provide that the DMV database is check when each person votes. Then they could compare the photo in the database with the person standing in front of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lvoc
A newspaper did a deep look at voter fraud in southern Florida. Found some. Interesting though that all the fraudulent voters had photo ID....generally a drivers license.
If you have a link to the story please post it. If this was a case of voter ID fraud I would be interested in how they detected if after the fact. Mail in ballets can be checked against a registered voter, however ballet cast at a polling place cannot.
You posted some valid points about voter ID in a different post, I have address them below. However, I have not seen a post that show a better means of prevent voter ID fraud. So until you can back your claim, calling it a lie is just name calling. I will give you another chance to backup your claim.
You need to learn the difference between a lie and a difference of opinion. You say that thousands of cases of voter fraud is not a problem, I say it is. That is an opinion. I say the a system that can be easy breached is an issue you say that is not an issue. These are matters of opinion, not lie. Again name calling will not help your argument.
Yes it is possible that people can get fake IDs. However, that is still better than nothing. Based on the underling philosophy of your statement, nothing should be improved unless the improvement is perfect. We all know that nothing is perfect, but that shouldn't stop us from making improvements.
That is not the type of fraud that voter ID is trying to stop. There are other method already in place the try to catch that type of fraud. In fact convictions for doing exactly that that is one of the indicators that fraud is occurring.
Again, the voter ID laws are not aimed at that type of fraud. There are other methods for detecting that type of fraud.
So your premise is to not try to improve the current method because the improvement isn't perfect. That we should keep going on with the current flawed method instead of using something better??
There are many post showing that fraud is occurring. It is your OPINION that it is not rampant. However that OPINION is impossible to prove because methods that would actually detect that fraud are not in place.
Please backup your statement with facts. Many posting have shown that fraud is occurring, please post some links showing that all votes are legitimate.[/quote]
Of course you think this is better than nothing because it gives you a false sense of security. Do you think airport screening does anything to prevent terrorists? No, it just gives people a visual that something is being done.
I don't think it makes sense to spend an outrageous amount of money and to isolate innocent voters to prevent voter fraud at the polls that rarely happens.
"Rampant" is the key word, I didn't say voter fraud didn't happen, I am saying it barely happens on the voter side, and not enough to justify the need for photo IDs, especially when someone showing up with their electric bill and maybe a W-2, and willing to duplicate the signature on file is more than enough proof needed for voting.
There will always be fraud no matter what subject. Anyone denying that is naive. In the case of voter ID are Obama supporters really that naive? Or are they denying it exist because they are just parroting MSNBC.
You posted some valid points about voter ID in a different post, I have address them below. However, I have not seen a post that show a better means of prevent voter ID fraud. So until you can back your claim, calling it a lie is just name calling. I will give you another chance to backup your claim.
You need to learn the difference between a lie and a difference of opinion. You say that thousands of cases of voter fraud is not a problem, I say it is. That is an opinion. I say the a system that can be easy breached is an issue you say that is not an issue. These are matters of opinion, not lie. Again name calling will not help your argument.
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We are not having a difference of opinion. I have no opinion about whether voter fraud is widespread problem.
I have merely read the various investigations into voter fraud that get detailed in the news over and over again and all of those investigations say that there is very little voter fraud.
So there is no opinion about whether voter fraud is a widespread problem. It isn't.
So your difference of opinion is with reality not me.
Usually when people disagree with reality, I say they are lying.
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