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Don't bother. I quit yesterday. I have no use or patience for people who willfully ignore facts.
LOL.. I saw those yesterday..
I'm beginning to think the person is s troll whose only on here to say crazy things and stir things up.. no one can be that senseless without it being on purpose..LOL..
I'm beginning to think the person is s troll whose only on here to say crazy things and stir things up.. no one can be that senseless without it being on purpose..LOL..
YOu can't seem to comprehend that when I had my child I was in a relationship and WE as a couple were finanically secure, at the time.
No one enters into marriage planning for divorce.. it's assinine.
I seriously doubt that you have any real world experiences to be writing the kind of things you are in this board.
You don't really seem to have a grasp on a lot of things...... and you obviously do not comprehend what is being said here..
And that post you responded to was generalizations.. that means that it applies to most of the peopel out there.. all of which are faced with just the scenarios indidcated. If everyone thought like you the world would not be procreating at all...
Like speaking to a wall? That's because you refuse to see there is a thing called "personal responsibility."
Plenty of people entering marriage planned for their divorce. There's a thing called prenuptial agreement, and it's NOT asinine.
You were married or not is relevant, not sure why you keep bringing it up. How does a couple, who were financially secure, become financially insecure?
I know, personally, single mothers who know exactly how to game the support systems. Work under the table, hide assets, falsify taxes, the whole gamut. Refusing to name a father is another common ploy. (If the mother names a father, the father is automatically on the hook for child support, but receiving the child support cuts into the mother's benefits.) I would have a lot less of an issue with Section 8, SNAP, WIC, free lunch/waived fees at school, free health insurance and all the other programs if the programs would do even a little bit of due diligence to prevent fraud, but they basically do nothing. A woman shows up with a couple of verifiable kids and last year's falsified tax return, and the spigot is opened.
HE completely ignored where I said when I was married and had my child, I had the means... flew right over his head.. or in this case, they choose not to see it. IT's easier for them to demonize me and make me out as someone that just made bad choices...
And thanks for sticking up for me.
I know I was tough on you in my last post...but I will say that I don't think being on welfare for 8 months is abusing the system. That's what it's supposed to be for....a short term safety net. But for many with low aspirations and a weak or non-existent work ethic, it becomes their way of life.
Plenty of others. Most of the academic papers I read on the subject first set about making all relevant factors for any job the same, and then seeing the pay/advancement once equalized.
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Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom
Something else factored in.. is that parenting FULL TIME.. staying at home with a child is a JOB.. one that doesn't pay anything. It may seem that the model worked, but how many women lived an existence of dread either in abusive relationships or with horrible husbands because if they left, being the ones taking care of the children and not gaining work experience, they would be unemployable or only employable at low wages?
And you'll note from my earlier post that I say the extended unemployment periods generally experienced by women for child rearing is expected, natural and PREFERRED. I realize that taking care of children is full time work, but the business world has very few opportunities related to that particular work experience. IT's the simple reality of business. If I have a lucrative software development position, the work experience I care about is software development, not domestic engineering and child care. Same holds true for most jobs not in the domestic engineering and child care industries.
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Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom
Being a mother, staying at home full time with a child is difficult work. There are no sick days, no paid vacations.. a women can never come home and put her feet up and ask her husband to get her dinner because she was "working all day".
A totally gender biased and misogynist view of husbands and fathers, but whatever. We are discussing single mothers here, and the meme about glass ceilings being more myth than reality.
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Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom
But now, women are expected to do both - raise children and all the work that comes along with it AND earn an income, because surviving on one income alone is difficut now days. And indeed, the women are more likely to be the spouse that takes the lower paying, lower skillled job because the women are also the ones more likely to stay home with the sick child or miss a day of work for their child's event. Which is trhe reason many women who end up divorced, end up in jobs that don't pay enough to support them and their children. This is made even worse when the former spouse ends up being a deadbeat and doesn't meet his obligations financially as a father.
And none of this does anything but expose why the glass ceiling is a myth. Women ARE going to be the one who takes off work more often for child care. Women ARE the ones who will choose flexible schedules, more time off, less risky and time intensive jobs, all for the purpose of raising children. Not sure why you think that is what results in divorce, other than more misogynist man-bashing, but it does explain quite simply why the economics of women in the workplace still lags men and not as a result of gender discrimination, but reality of the business world.
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Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom
So, which one is it. Should women be out there getting the 'experience' the men are and if so, who is at home raising children? Or.. should women stay in unhappy, unhealthy relationships - which are not healthy for them or the children - because if they left they would be in poverty, because they didn't gain the "experience"or weren't on a career track like their husband.
Why is every non-single woman raising kids in an unhappy, unhealthy relationship? And there is no binary right or wrong here. Any worker choosing parenthood, regardless of gender or marital status, must accept the sacrifices that come with such a decision, and weigh the options as they apply to each individual's sense of what they find fulfilling in life. But one cannot expect the business world to bend to their individual choices, regardless of what those choices are, parenthood included.
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Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom
Either way, collectively as a sex, women earn less in the workplace than men do - for the reasons you stated. But society can't have it both ways. You can't expect children to be reared by the parents responsibly and expect both parents to be earning an income that, should they get divorced, each would be able to support children without a spouse. So, indeed, many divorced women end up needing assistance to survive and if not in poverty, end up always hovering at the poverty level.
But I know plenty of single moms. I was raised by one, my sister is one. And one thing both failed to do while their children were in school was invest in themselves. Since my niece was 5, my sister had the hours of 8 AM - 3 PM every single M-F, 9 months of the year, all to herself. Kids at school, husband at work, and a brother imploring her to take classes to invest in her own skills simply because you never know how the future will unfold, and that everyone should be capable of taking care of themselves and their families financially. 13 years went by, same situation. Every day during the school year, totally free to pursue self-actualization, and in all that time, not one class, no books, no online training, nothing. Now she makes $12 an hour as the same secretary she was when she got married and took a 22 year hiatus from the workforce.
My mother was the same way. She never self-actualized, and since I lived with babysitters except every other weekend, until I was 6, and the reason it ended that early was because at 9, my sister was deemed old enough to care for me full time, and in the 70s you could get away with it, I can tell you her lack of self-actualization wasn't based on her "full time job" of raising kids. My mom was largely MIA most of my childhood, and when she did finally decide to be around more, she was unemployed and spent most of her time feeling sorry for herself, not raising kids. The first time I gave my mother money to pay bills I was 11. That didn't stop until I was 35 and had finally had enough. And my dad went MIA when I was 2, and his monthly child support checks were the only evidence we had that he existed for like 2-3 years at a time.
She complained about glass ceilings too, but refused to accept her spotty, woeful job history that she continually made worse with one bad workplace decision after another, year after year. It was everyone's fault but hers, and she channeled tons of resentment at both me and my sister for her lot in life of being (in her actual oft repeated words) "burdened with kids." At least my sister recognizes that she should have taken classes like I begged her to for 13 years, and accepts her current status as a result of not doing anything to self-actualize. My mom will go to her grave blaming everyone in the world besides herself. I know tons of women like them, and I know single moms who go to night school, self-actualize and become crazy successful.
Given your normal positions on most things in this area, I am pretty sure which group you fall into.
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Originally Posted by Proud2beAMom
Even if the roles reversed, and the man became the full custodial parent of the child, the man's income would suffer for the same reason that the women's do.. because he would be more likely to miss days of work or to pre-occupied with kids to advance his career or gain the experience required. Single parenting is difficult and is an unfortunate reality in today's society.
True enough, but this does not infer a glass ceiling, nor discrimination. It is a reality of the marketplace that anyone choosing to be a parent, man or woman, should consider quite seriously. I have a sister-in-law who chose kids over career, and she was making killer money as a federal court reporter who handled 3 different federal judges in DC. She wanted the mom life and is just as happy today as she was 15 years ago when she made the decision. her husband is an airline pilot, who is at the top of the co-pilot ranks, and has refused promotion for the last 5 years. Know why? Because if he goes to full captain, he will be at the bottom of the seniority rankings and cannot make his schedule as flexible as it is now to support coaching little league, being an involved dad, etc. He takes an annual $30-40k pay cut for this, and is happy to do so.
These are realities of business, not indictments of society.
Plenty of others. Most of the academic papers I read on the subject first set about making all relevant factors for any job the same, and then seeing the pay/advancement once equalized.
Thank you. that wasn't a challenge to what you said.. I did want to see the studies.
I can see that two equal jobs with equal dedication from either a man or a woman will result in equal pay. I wasn't really speaking in specifics.. it was more general; that women, overall, tend to earn less in the workplace than men - but is not neccesarily true in each case.. as a gender more.
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And you'll note from my earlier post that I say the extended unemployment periods generally experienced by women for child rearing is expected, natural and PREFERRED. I realize that taking care of children is full time work, but the business world has very few opportunities related to that particular work experience. IT's the simple reality of business. If I have a lucrative software development position, the work experience I care about is software development, not domestic engineering and child care. Same holds true for most jobs not in the domestic engineering and child care industries.
I do understand that. I think you were missing my point; that women are left in a more vulnerble position, with their life dedicated to things that do not translate into $$ in the "real world" or the world outside their marriage. Although, one could say that skills acquired doing house work could translate into business. I mean many women, myself included, are good at budgeting and making money stretch.I know I was.. it comes in handy when applied to real world situations.
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A totally gender biased and misogynist view of husbands and fathers, but whatever. We are discussing single mothers here, and the meme about glass ceilings being more myth than reality.
I would say it's more realistic , but it's changing.
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And none of this does anything but expose why the glass ceiling is a myth. Women ARE going to be the one who takes off work more often for child care. Women ARE the ones who will choose flexible schedules, more time off, less risky and time intensive jobs, all for the purpose of raising children. Not sure why you think that is what results in divorce, other than more misogynist man-bashing, but it does explain quite simply why the economics of women in the workplace still lags men and not as a result of gender discrimination, but reality of the business world.
When I re-read it I don't think it leads to divorce, neccesarily. And I wasn't really man-bashing. What I meant was that when divorce occurs, women are left in a more vulnerable position of not being able to obtain work that will support themselves and their child. But, the same could be applied to the man that would be in the same position as the wife, should the wife be the one that dedicates more time to work/career.
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Why is every non-single woman raising kids in an unhappy, unhealthy relationship? And there is no binary right or wrong here. Any worker choosing parenthood, regardless of gender or marital status, must accept the sacrifices that come with such a decision, and weigh the options as they apply to each individual's sense of what they find fulfilling in life. But one cannot expect the business world to bend to their individual choices, regardless of what those choices are, parenthood included.
Again, that came off wrong. I'm not saying every non-single women is in an unhappy marriage. I simply meant to say that we don't know how many who were married in the past, when things were far different and women weren't as ni the work place as we are now; how many were truly unhappy in their marriage for many reasons. I think divorce happens now days for many reasons and I think the uptick does have a lot to do with women being more vocal, wanting more control and not just being subservient as they were in say 1950's. As a result, we are less apt to stay in unhappy marriages - but at the same time, when those marriages end we are left in vulnerable positions.
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But I know plenty of single moms. I was raised by one, my sister is one. And one thing both failed to do while their children were in school was invest in themselves. Since my niece was 5, my sister had the hours of 8 AM - 3 PM every single M-F, 9 months of the year, all to herself. Kids at school, husband at work, and a brother imploring her to take classes to invest in her own skills simply because you never know how the future will unfold, and that everyone should be capable of taking care of themselves and their families financially. 13 years went by, same situation. Every day during the school year, totally free to pursue self-actualization, and in all that time, not one class, no books, no online training, nothing. Now she makes $12 an hour as the same secretary she was when she got married and took a 22 year hiatus from the workforce.
My mother was the same way. She never self-actualized, and since I lived with babysitters except every other weekend, until I was 6, and the reason it ended that early was because at 9, my sister was deemed old enough to care for me full time, and in the 70s you could get away with it, I can tell you her lack of self-actualization wasn't based on her "full time job" of raising kids. My mom was largely MIA most of my childhood, and when she did finally decide to be around more, she was unemployed and spent most of her time feeling sorry for herself, not raising kids. The first time I gave my mother money to pay bills I was 11. That didn't stop until I was 35 and had finally had enough. And my dad went MIA when I was 2, and his monthly child support checks were the only evidence we had that he existed for like 2-3 years at a time.
She complained about glass ceilings too, but refused to accept her spotty, woeful job history that she continually made worse with one bad workplace decision after another, year after year. It was everyone's fault but hers, and she channeled tons of resentment at both me and my sister for her lot in life of being (in her actual oft repeated words) "burdened with kids." At least my sister recognizes that she should have taken classes like I begged her to for 13 years, and accepts her current status as a result of not doing anything to self-actualize. My mom will go to her grave blaming everyone in the world besides herself. I know tons of women like them, and I know single moms who go to night school, self-actualize and become crazy successful.
Sorry to hear that. But that doesn't mean that every single mother is your mom or your sister.
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Given your normal positions on most things in this area, I am pretty sure which group you fall into.
ARe you trying to imply I'm like your mother..LOL.. um.. no you couldn't BE further from the truth. First, before I had my child, I was self employed as a Realtor doing quite well. I was married to someone that didn't understand being a "team player" and ALL The childcare fell to me. No complaints.. I really loved being with my son every day and am grateful that I got that experience. Daycare was impossible because any job I'd get would pay me about what daycare costs a week. Indeed, I have job skills (lots of computer skills) but at the time had no college degree. working as a REaltor would be difficult because while I made good money, it wasn't consistent and wasn't coming in to work my cash flow situation - ie; paying for daycare while I worked the deals.
And, while I was married I contemplated going back to school to finish my degree. However, being married to who I was married to made it impossible (For many reasons not worth getting into here). AFter we split I enrolled in online classes and am in my last quarter of school and will have my BBA with a concentration in marketing, minor in small business management. I did all this while finding work here and there utilizing my skills acquired through the years - and fortunately a lot of it was from home. I did find a job at Amazon for awhile and was only able to work that job because I had a boyfriend (that is now my fiance) that is self employed and was able to watch my son for me while I worked. ANd.. while doing that, Is started my own business which is really taking off. It becomes much easier, indeed, when your kid goes to school because it frees up more time.
I know plenty of women working several jobs or creating their own businesses.. not neccesarily taking classes or something - but doing what they can when they can.
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True enough, but this does not infer a glass ceiling, nor discrimination. It is a reality of the marketplace that anyone choosing to be a parent, man or woman, should consider quite seriously. I have a sister-in-law who chose kids over career, and she was making killer money as a federal court reporter who handled 3 different federal judges in DC. She wanted the mom life and is just as happy today as she was 15 years ago when she made the decision. her husband is an airline pilot, who is at the top of the co-pilot ranks, and has refused promotion for the last 5 years. Know why? Because if he goes to full captain, he will be at the bottom of the seniority rankings and cannot make his schedule as flexible as it is now to support coaching little league, being an involved dad, etc. He takes an annual $30-40k pay cut for this, and is happy to do so.
These are realities of business, not indictments of society.
indeed.. and i would make the same choices your friend and her husband has made. They may not have as much money as they could have, but they also are thankfully not on an assistance in order to make those sacrifices.. but a las, he is a professional. If she were to get divorced, she'd be in aposition in which she'd either have to take work that would allwo for flexbility or less pay or try to go back into what she ws doing before she had kids that would present a whole new set of challenges. And, if she couldn't because it wasn't conducive to taking care of her chidren, the jobs she did take might not be enough to support herself and her kids. OF course, the dad is probably making a well enough living where she wouldn't need assistance with wht she'd get in the divorce. Unfortunately my situation wasn't the same.
Thanks for the debate back and forth. I respect what you've had to say here. I just understand that being able to do all the things neccesary, like going to college liek I did with kids, is very difficult and not for everyone (and comes with its own issues - I will have huge student debts to pay off! LOL).. I just don't like when single parents are villianized and called lazy mooches.. they aren't.. some I'm sure are, but most aren't.
Thanks for the debate back and forth. I respect what you've had to say here. I just understand that being able to do all the things neccesary, like going to college like I did with kids, is very difficult and not for everyone (and comes with its own issues - I will have huge student debts to pay off! LOL).. I just don't like when single parents are villianized and called lazy mooches.. they aren't.. some I'm sure are, but most aren't.
First - if I came off combative, it was based on my appraisal of comments you made early but cleared up in your last post. My bad, mea culpa, etc.
Second - I don't call single parents lazy or mooches. I just have severe difficulty with anyone who chose to have kids and then blame those kids and the world around them for the fact that now their life has more difficult parameters. It sounds like you did not make these excuses, given your recent clarifications, and good for you. When I got my MBA, two single moms were in my class, and they got their degrees same as I got mine. An ex-girlfriend of mine had a single mom friend who worked and attended school and was a pretty involved mom all the way around. She had an awesome outlook and was a genuine pleasure to know.
But I know more like my mom than I do those with positive attitudes, sad to say. Most of them are all about blame first, gripe second, get to improving their own lives dead freaking last. This is why I push my own wife so relentlessly about her career and education. She makes good money but can open up better employability, opportunities, and choices by just two more years of school and some resume cleanup by sticking with her current employer until she hits the 3-4 year mark. I don't plan on divorcing her, nor her divorce me, but I cannot say I will live forever or even past this week, since unexpected can and does happen, and I want her to be able to not just survive, but rock the mad cash should I go to the next life unexpectedly. That's how I answer her when she says "yeah, but you have such a good career." Yes, I do have a good career, and I am happy about that, but I am not immortal nor bulletproof, and my industry and specialty is in great demand...this week, no telling what next week will bring. A large part of my fierceness is realities like the ones you and I have been discussing today.
The thing to keep in mind in all this is how voluntary it all is. Anyone can choose their path, but once chosen, should limit how much they blame others for that choice. I think we found our common ground, and that's good. But I will still be fierce about my "quit crying, get to work" attitude I have with everyone. I am worse at home than on this forum, and much much worse on myself than anyone else.
First - if I came off combative, it was based on my appraisal of comments you made early but cleared up in your last post. My bad, mea culpa, etc.
Second - I don't call single parents lazy or mooches. I just have severe difficulty with anyone who chose to have kids and then blame those kids and the world around them for the fact that now their life has more difficult parameters. It sounds like you did not make these excuses, given your recent clarifications, and good for you. When I got my MBA, two single moms were in my class, and they got their degrees same as I got mine. An ex-girlfriend of mine had a single mom friend who worked and attended school and was a pretty involved mom all the way around. She had an awesome outlook and was a genuine pleasure to know.
But I know more like my mom than I do those with positive attitudes, sad to say. Most of them are all about blame first, gripe second, get to improving their own lives dead freaking last. This is why I push my own wife so relentlessly about her career and education. She makes good money but can open up better employability, opportunities, and choices by just two more years of school and some resume cleanup by sticking with her current employer until she hits the 3-4 year mark. I don't plan on divorcing her, nor her divorce me, but I cannot say I will live forever or even past this week, since unexpected can and does happen, and I want her to be able to not just survive, but rock the mad cash should I go to the next life unexpectedly. That's how I answer her when she says "yeah, but you have such a good career." Yes, I do have a good career, and I am happy about that, but I am not immortal nor bulletproof, and my industry and specialty is in great demand...this week, no telling what next week will bring. A large part of my fierceness is realities like the ones you and I have been discussing today.
The thing to keep in mind in all this is how voluntary it all is. Anyone can choose their path, but once chosen, should limit how much they blame others for that choice. I think we found our common ground, and that's good. But I will still be fierce about my "quit crying, get to work" attitude I have with everyone. I am worse at home than on this forum, and much much worse on myself than anyone else.
NO worries on whether you came across combative.
I am fortunate to be in a relationship with someone who IS a "partner" and encourages me , or rather, doesnt' stand in my way. I wish when I was younger Iwould have been a little more "independent" rather than so willing to give in to whatever my ex husband felt was the way to go. He made it difficult for me to pursue things when I child was little because he wouldn't commit to making a schedule and sticking to it.. so truly, when my son was born it was me 24 /7 . If I left for just a little bit and left the baby with my husband it was "hurry up" and get back. Not my son's fault at all and not the fault on being a parent.. just having a partner that didn't know how to communicate and be a partner.
Good for you , too , on encouraging your wife! That is HUGE.
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