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Excellent point. Should the Jewish baker be forced to make a custom cake for Hitlers birthday?
Should a black baker be forced to make a custom cake praising KKK anniversary?
There was nothing objectionable about either cake. In fact the discussion in both cases didn't even get past the who's getting married question. If either couple wanted a cake covered in penises, or something, then yes deny them those decorations. But a basic wedding cake with several tiers, fondant, ribbon, and flowers. What would be objectionable about that?
IF the "custom product" theory was so great, why hasn't it been used in any of the cases that have been to trial?
Just wait. In my eyes its an important factor as the baker didn't simply refuse a sale of his products but rather refused to provide a custom product. It's a big difference.
Excellent point. Should the Jewish baker be forced to make a custom cake for Hitlers birthday?
Should a black baker be forced to make a custom cake praising KKK anniversary?
Just wait. In my eyes its an important factor as the baker didn't simply refuse a sale of his products but rather refused to provide a custom product. It's a big difference.
The closest either case has come is trying a freedom of expression defense, which was shot down in both the bakery and the photographer cases citing several cases as precedence.
The baker, as I've pointed out in another post in this thread, makes a CUSTOM PRODUCT. He was not refusing to sell a mass produced, "off the shelf" product available for anyone, but he was asked to make a CUSTOM CAKE for this particular party. This amounts to a contract where there is an offer of service, with a corresoponding acceptance of that offer. The baker has no obligation to make that offer to anyone. No offer made, no cake. He cannot be forced into making a contract with another party if he chooses not to.
I used to be in the ceramic tile business, as a self employed contractor. I turned work down on occassion for various reasons. I did not offer to do the job after visiting the home and seeing the job site. It was my choice. There is no law that says I have to do any job that comes along. That would be "involuntary servitude" (Amendment XIII of the U.S. Constitution).
The baker would be forced not only into involuntary servitude, if he were forced to produce this CUSTOM PRODUCT, he would also be forced into violating his religious convictions by dignifying what he believes is a perversion and corruption of the sacred right of Holy Matrimony, and making a mockery of God.
No law should be allowed to stand that would force a person to violate their religion in this way.
Re using religious conviction to discriminate against a group: Where does this end? There are, literally, two billion different interpretations of Christianity alone, based on individual differences, not to mention thousands of different Christian groups, all with their own sins and virtues. If you allow one person to discriminate against gays in the name of religious conviction, will you allow another to discriminate against Jews in the name of religious conviction? If you want to okay discrimination against gays, but keep Jews protected, how will you do that without violating the religious conscience of the anti-Semite?
Re custom products and your ceramic business: When you refused to work on a specific site, did you ever openly state that you were refusing service to a black man, SIMPLY BECAUSE he was a black man? Do you believe that you would have gotten away with it?
IF the "custom product" theory was so great, why hasn't it been used in any of the cases that have been to trial?
Good question. The Thirteenth Amendment aspect was brought up in an article I read, and the article also asked that question. I thought it was a valid argument (I do not recall if the author was an attorney). I think by now it is moot, because I believe that the bakery has chosen to close. He probably should have filed an appeal and found better representation. I think he could have won on that basis.
Good question. The Thirteenth Amendment aspect was brought up in an article I read, and the article also asked that question. I thought it was a valid argument (I do not recall if the author was an attorney). I think by now it is moot, because I believe that the bakery has chosen to close. He probably should have filed an appeal and found better representation. I think he could have won on that basis.
He should have contacted the ACLJ.
I have read the court cases from the NM photographer case and the Colorado bakery case, the Oregon case hasn't been heard yet. Neither of the cases that have been to court have tried a 13th amendment defense.
No one is FORCING Augusta to change their rules. They can choose to change them at any time they want.
Just like Curves could CHOOSE to allow men. Again, if it is a private club they have the option of allowing or denying anyone membership.
People are TRYING to make Augusta change their rules. Can you cite an example of someone TRYING to make a women's only club change their rules?
People are TRYING to make Augusta change their rules. Can you cite an example of someone TRYING to make a women's only club change their rules?
Augusta has already CHOSEN to change their admission rules. No one forced them to do so. People can fuss and complain, but that is not forcing anyone to do anything. If the government came in and made Augusta or Curves change their rules, then that would be FORCE.
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