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We as a people are also highly individualistic, so lack the traditions of intra group cooperation that several Asian, Latin and Middle Eastern groups have.
I recognize all of that with Black people. But then the question is how do we change things with us? I think it starts with economic awarness from a Black perspective which many Black people lack.
This is why I'm a big fan of someone like George Fraser. He's an example of someone who can help to change the mindset of many Blacks. He is a big advocate of Blacks networking with each other. I feel that he's putting out the info that can bring about this Black economic awareness if more Blacks get exposed to him.
A BBC report said 1/3 of South African which is plausible as it is a very urban country.
Now if you don't like that data go scream at the BBC. The facts remain that millions of African women bleach and it is considered a major health problem.
Just because BBC said something doesn't mean it's true. It's not that I don't like the data but the data is false. When you look at statistics you have to check the sample size, what areas did they go to and ect ect. Most stats are bias. 1/3 of what? How did they go about getting this information? All those things you have to take into consideration before blurting out stats like it's the end all be all. It doesn't matter whether its from CNN,FOX NEWS, BBC, ABC or ect. stats will lead you down the wrong path.
African women bleach, but a small portion do. As far as top concerns in regards to African women, bleaching is at the bottom of the list.
The BBC has come late to the party. Africans have been complaining about bleaching since the 1970s. With greater exposure to western images, a larger middle class who wish to look like modern urban women, and with higher purchasing power I can only imagine that its worse.
Do you have a vested interest in idealizing Africans? You ought to know that many carry serious baggage of colonialism, and the immensely negative image that Africa has, even among non African blacks. And the extreme dependence of much of that continent on European and US NGOs doesn't help their self esteem either.
And if you are African you definitely know about how many of its elites simply revere Europe.
I am aware of the negatives and I am aware of the positives in Africa. I simply am showing both sides. Africans are changing and there is growth in Africa as we speak.Due to my parents being very succesful in the states and having a business back home, I get the opportunity every year to actuallysee the changes. Is there a long way to go? Yes. I believe in showing all the different aspects of Africa. It is not just one thing. For every negative thing you say, I can find a positive. It's best to be fair. I am in my early twenties by the way that's why I can provide insight in regards to the youth in Africa. I asked my dad and uncles about "the orange fanta ladies". They never heard of anything like that(he's in his late 50's).
Do you know that there are current African activist in African countries urging people to consume locally made products and services? Africans are slowly making steps toward economic independence. You should know that you have to crawl before you can walk.
Yes. Been to Senegal, Gambia, Sierra Leone, Liberia and Kenya. Indeed the phenomenon is not new. African students who I knew in the late 70s spoke of the "Fanta" ladies, orange faces (like the Fanta drink then popular in Africa) and chocolate legs.
African women have become considerably more impacted by Western images since. Look at the models in many of those African magazines and you might note that they aren't the full figured females of 30 years ago. There is also pressure to adopt a more slimmer, less curvy body image, which might work among a certain kind of western black woman, who aren't pure African, but is unworkable among large numbers of sub Saharan women. Google who Africa now sends to Miss Universe.
Lucky thing that African men still like their women to be well developed, otherwise that would also be another problem.
Miss universe is a poor example to use. Most Africans do not care about that contest. If you already know how the average winner looks like in a contest, is someone really going to send somebody to participate that isn't similar? That contest isn't relevant to the average African anyway so if you want to debate this, find some popular African models that are popular to Africans.
You should know that the majority of Africans in Africa are skinny in general and always has been.( skinny to a thick type of skinny) Still is. You act like African men choose one or the other and that is not the case. The desirability of full figured African women and skinny African women can/do co exist in Africa.. As of now, majority of the african men in Africa or married to skinny women. Mostly due to walking a lot. Most African women stay skinny until they come to the states.
You do know that most African countries have their traditional magazines with the traditional clothing. Most of the models in there have different shapes and range from young to old. Those sell well over there. You can even find some of them in some African areas in the east coast.
The fully developed and slimmer women are both desirable in Africa. In the U.S its harder for women to get roles once they get to a certain age. However in Africa, older actress get a lot of work and the audience wants to see them.
Race is not made up of closely related ethnicities. African Americans and Ethiopians are both considered black. Native south Africans and white skin South Africans are considered a different race. Due to inter-relations, there is a much stronger biological connection between the two races based in South Africa.
You're telling me that White South-Africans like the Afrikaner are ethnically distinct from native South-Africans like the Zulu (I agree) but that it's nonsense to say that Afrikaners and Zulus belong to different races, all because there have been instances of intermarriage between the 2 peoples and because they live on the same piece of land ?
Do you actually believe that Afrikaners are genetically more closely related to their neighbors in South-Africa than to european populations like the, say, Belgians ?
That sounds astonishing to me. One needs to have almost a religious dedication to the "race has no biological meaning" belief to say something like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonAccountant
African-Americans and Ethiopians would be grouped together by outsiders, as part of the same race. The two individual groups would not recognize any connection.
Do you get the social construct part. Someone else groups black people into a single race. Most people who would be grouped there, do not self-identify as black and would not group themselves there.
I'm nto saying that there is NO social construction aspect to race. There is a social component to the concept. What I deny is that race has NO biological meaning whatsoever. I do NOT buy the idea that race has NOTHING to do with genetics. That's something medical genetics researchers say to avoid trouble, nothing more. They know there's a genetic, biological component to race. They don't want to be harassed by some people so in public they say stuff like "you can't tell race by looking at only 1 gene!". well, indeed it'd be hard to tell race by looking at only 1 gene. By looking at genetic information globally it become trivial to tell race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonAccountant
I self-identify as black, I have met very few "black" people, not from America who consider themselves black. I wish they did but they do not. Most of them look at my complexion and do not consider me black. They call me West Indian.
My opinion reflects the overall opinions of people from all backgrounds. Your socially accepted opinion is really only shared by people of western civilization descent, and African-Americans.
My experience must be quite different from yours.
I'm of caribbean origin and I'm definitely a member of the black race, as are my parents.
The only people that I'd consider black and who would disagree are some afro-latinos, maybe some. sudanese and some people from the horn of Africa.
Apart from that, I've never encountered a regular west-african or black caribbean who disagreed that they were black. Some of the light skinned caribbeans might disagree but so what ? Does everyone have to obey the usa one drop rule ?
What's important to say is that black peole outside of the USA often have a more *specific* identity that they relate to much stronger. Of course, but that doesn't mean that they disagree about being black. It might not be extremely important to them, though, because of their context.
I recognize all of that with Black people. But then the question is how do we change things with us? I think it starts with economic awareness from a Black perspective which many Black people lack.
This is why I'm a big fan of someone like George Fraser. He's an example of someone who can help to change the mindset of many Blacks. He is a big advocate of Blacks networking with each other. I feel that he's putting out the info that can bring about this Black economic awareness if more Blacks get exposed to him.
Majority of Blacks in the U.S lack the characteristic of being adventurous. I believe this trait is important because it's one of the reasons why whites have so much economic power in the world. They like to explore and find out what's out there in the world. They are open to moving/going to the "unknown"
The unknown may have a lot of resources/ new opportunities.
Traveling to new places/ being open to new things isn't a priority to most blacks. There are many blacks who don't even leave their respective states. A large portion of blacks don't really go abroad nor emphasize it. Sitting in the house, and digesting every negative statistic that they throw out about yourself won't bring unity. One being complacent is not good.
I really think traveling to different areas, talking to different types of people will open people's eyes on a larger scale. Being more adventurous will help to increase economic awareness.
I guess an example would be a black individual that lives in a state or area where there really isn't a true black middle/upper class. They one day take a trip to Georgie.For the first time they get to see a true black middle class and blacks who run their own business/run things. That little trip may give that black individual more confidence and open their mind up to new ideas. If that make sense. Please chip in.
greatchick is in denial. She ought to look at Indian personal ads to see how many demand that the prospective mate have a "wheat" color. A preference for light skin is embedded amongst Indians and cannot be blamed on the adverse impacts of colonialism, as one can argue is the case for Africans and the blacks in the Americas.
Stop dreaming and start being realistic. Black people aren't risk oriented, don't have a tradition in running businesses, are isolated from distribution chains, and lack capital. So they don't have the ability to suddenly open up all these businesses. We as a people are also highly individualistic, so lack the traditions of intra group cooperation that several Asian, Latin and Middle Eastern groups have.
Also don't wax romantic about the so called Caribbean susu because Caribbean retail businesses are losing ground. A drive around the commercial, strips on Flatbush Ave, Nostrand Ave, Utica Ave will show you this. Escalating rents and declining sales being the usual culprits. In addition the local population isn't going to support a business which cannot offer a broad choice, competitive prices, modern ambiences, etc., and will buy from those who are able to offer this.
People can go to forums, and those who have never run a business with a payroll (so not including independent consultants) will rant about what blacks "should do". I have heard this now for 20 years and am sick of it.
Blacks who have the ability, the desire, the capital, and the social/business connections to establish businesses are doing so. Very few of them have any patience for a "buy black" campaign. They wish to do business with any one who is a suitable potential client. While most will be blacks, they don't wish to be limited to that, and fear that other groups will use that to isolate these businesses from more lucrative opportunities.
There are traditionally commerce oriented black populations like the Bamileke of Cameroon.
I've known (acquaintances) a few who made good money in Europe serving the local black communities and beyond. Those people are renowned for being obsessed with money, lol, and are often resented by other Blacks for that.
Still, what the Bamileke do looks like primitive commerce that the phoenicians, jews, chinese were doing thousands of years ago. It's just very hard to compete with people who have a commerce and money tradition going back several centuries.
To some extent, in most developped countries, the natives managed to grow their own commercial class and that allowed them to benefit as a whole instead of all the profit going to a minority of culturally foreign middlemen.
In my own city I see caribbean shops having a hard time competing.
As you mentioned, there is little advanced knowledge of finance, customer service, etc.
Wherever african commerce people have to compete with, say the Chinese, the africans lose.
If you've been to Paris you've noticed that the african food is sold by the Chinese.
I've read that the Chinese have taken over even street markets in countries like the Congo.
They're just way, way better businessmen and until we blacks grow our own multi-generational business class we will have a hard time competing.
I have to completely disagree with you here. I know a lot of full blooded African immigrants who are stick thin genetically and always complaining about lacking curves.
Being out of the reach of most people is pretty much what beauty ideals are all about.
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