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I'm not white but will weigh in on this discussion. While I don't believe affirmative action is perfect, I do believe that it's a necessary evil. It prevents the majority from disciminating against minorities even more than they already do.
As far as white privilege, it absolutely exists. It's not as prevalant in entry and mid level jobs, but the hire you climb the corporate ladder, the more racial discrimination subtly rears it's ugly head.
On every social, political, economical, and educational level whites are given an unfair advantage. They don't have to label their meetings White this or that...All they have to do is live in White America and it's said loud and clear, not in so many words, but it's loud and clear.
So you believe in selective discrimination. Noted.
In reading your post, I'm going to out on a limb and assume you think you've been discriminated against at some point because of your race, gender, etc. Am I correct in making that assumption?
I also noted in reading your post that your grammar and spelling is terrible. Do you think that might be a reason you were passed over, and NOT because of your race, gender, etc?
Yes, Asian gangs exist, but so do white gangs? Aren't the original gangs in this country the Irish and the Italians? How about the Russians as well?
My point (from way back on post #71) is that there are notable exceptions - positive, negative or just different - in every ethnic or racial group. Asian gangs may not necessarily be a national phenomenon, but I would presume that their existence in presumably lower-income/working-class neighborhoods pulls down the high median income and low crime rate that you espouse below.
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I would agree that there are certain things which are far more difficult for Asians in America. But there are many things which are far more difficult for any race of people, even white people. My point is this, Asians have the highest median income of any racial group in America. They have the lowest overall crime rate of any racial group in America.
Most of my response to this segment was made in my previous comment. I did want to add that except for entrepreneurs from the local convenience store owner to Yahoo founder Jerry Yang, it is relatively rare to see Asian-Americans in upper management. I don't recall if someone already quoted statistics here, but if one looks at Fortune 500 CEOs, one will find few Asians, other people of color or women in general.
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Almost every so called "privilege" that white people would get for being white, would also apply to Asians. So is it really white privilege if it isn't limited to only white people?
If Asians receive "almost every...privilege" as Whites per your quote, doesn't that mean there is a still a difference?
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Maybe instead of calling it white privilege, you can just call it what it actually is. Black penalty. Brought on by a general animosity towards black people, and not even that much by white people. Hispanics and Asians tend to distrust black people far more than white people do.
I would agree that one could view inequality as a "Black Penalty".I also believe there is an Asian penalty, Hispanic penalty, and Native American penalty. (There is a female penalty too which can be exacerbated by being a woman of color...but that is perhaps getting beyond the scope of this discussion.) I think there was some agreement earlier in this thread that there is prejudice between different minority groups.
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It isn't a general physical superiority. It has to do with physical differences/tendencies, and how they fit into certain sports. For instance, blacks aren't a monolithic group. West Africans and East Africans are about as different from each other as they are other racial groups.
For instance, West Africans have about 12-15% lower lung capacity than whites. On the other hand, East Africans have the same lung capacity or greater than whites.
You might also learn about "fast-twitch" and "slow-twitch" muscles, and how they play into sports. As well as things like the average length of arms and legs in proportion to height. Also how bone density and how hip width/shape play a role in running, swimming, etc.
You can believe what you want. The problem is, there is absolutely no evidence to support what you believe. Look at it like this, what sports are Eskimos good at? They are short, wide, with disproportionately short limbs.
I will grant that physical differences might make a difference in certain sports but again it comes back to culture, resources and often geography. For example, the world is catching up to the US in terms of basketball talent. Their Olympic teams can hold their own and occasionally even beat the US teams. NBA teams, particularly the San Antonio Spurs, are starting to look like the United Nations. Going back to tennis and golf, there may be more undiscovered Tigers, Serenas and Venuses in the world who may not have had the access to golf courses and tennis courts to realize their talents. Why is that? (See the title of this thread.)
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You must recognize if there were only two races, that at least when it comes to the most marketable sports(football/basketball), that black people would simply be superior to Eskimos. There is really no reason to even argue about it, it is a really stupid argument.
But there are not only two races. Again, I believe socioeconomics plays an important role.
Also, I don't like having to put on my "moderator hat", but...
Calling someone "stupid" vis-a-vis their "argument" is not in the spirit of the Terms of Service.
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Do you really believe that black people are no more likely to commit crimes than white people? Seriously? We can argue about whether or not drug laws are equally enforced. But I just do not see how anyone would be so naive as to believe that black people and white people commit crimes at the same rate. Even most other sane black people don't even believe that. Even civil-rights leaders who are trying to protect black people from abuse, don't even believe that.
Although I know you were speaking to me here, I do think there is a belief that lower-income/"poor" people are more likely to commit crimes, if only out of desperation of feeling they cannot improve their lot in life. Black-, Hispanic- and Native Americans as a whole have a higher % of poor people in their population compared to White Americans.
Chris Rock - Black People VS. *****z (Bring the Pain 1996) - YouTube
It would seem that Rev. Jackson has internalized his own "Black penalty" when it comes to (presumably) Blacks who are not dressed in what might be acceptable among those in the middle class and up.
I'm very familiar with the Chris Rock skit. One could say that some Black people shoot themselves in the proverbial foot. One could argue that after fifty years of mandated equal rights and affirmative action, African-Americans could have made up more ground that was lost in the 300 years preceding. Then again, some would argue that fifty years is not enough, especially if one believes white privilege still exists.
Last edited by FindingZen; 02-18-2014 at 03:12 PM..
not that complicated. "white privilege" means that white people have advantages simply by virtue of being white.
doesn't matter whether they want it or not, they have it.
It doesn't mean they're better than anyone else, it means some of society will treat them as if they are better.
for ex, I'm white, I certainly don't think I'm better than anyone based on skin color. But if I am arrested for something, my chances of being beat up by the cops - everything else being equal - are a whole lot less than if I'm non-white.
that's white privilege. It means I have privilege by virtue of living in a society that values white life over black life. it doesn't mean that I want the privilege.
the name of the conference means that the people there will be discussing white privilege and most likely ways to equalize society.
The society that least values black life is the black society.
We whites just sit back and shake our heads in disbelief.
But are they? Because a lot of research on the matter says that, all other things equal, you really aren't any better off being white. And that a lot of the reasons for the disparity is that black people are a lot more likely to live in places where violent confrontations with police are common and where there's a culture of challenging police during stops. So is the privilege really about being white or is it about not living in violent communities.
Actually the bold is not true by any means and it has been proven that especially in regards to the criminal justice system, educational system, and the job market, that black people are not treated equally in this country and that whites are better off as a whole statistically than black Americans.
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Originally Posted by thatguydownsouth
See this is where things get interesting. I dont think the idea of privilege exists with the skin color, as much as it exists because of what the skin color denotes (wealth). Its more correlation than causation. I am white (Scandinavian) and have received NO privileges in life because of my skin color. I worked my way though college and got my job based purely on my grades. The idea that I am where I am today because I cant tan actually is offensive to me. Ive worked very hard in life and have faced obstacles around every corner just like everyone else. Id sure like to know how to pull out this white privilege card every now and then...where do I sign up?!
Plenty of black people do the same as is bolded above, but once they get into the job market, you, as a white person would be better off even if you only have a bachelor's degree and a black person has a master's desgree.
Also, in regards to the criminal justice system, educated, higher income black people are stopped and harassed by police much moreso than white people, especially black men. Due to your white skin, you would not be forced to endure as much harassment as a black man would nor would you be negatively stereotyped like a black man would be. This is what white privilege is. The idea in our society that white people are better than black people no matter their backgrounds, income and education.
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Originally Posted by kantabriansea
Those channels "only for white people", like NBC had sitcoms like The Bill Cosby show, The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air or the CBS sitcom family matters, or the ABC sister, sister, hangin'with Mr. Cooper, the CW aired Everybody Hates Chris, and the FOX with the Cleveland Show
I thought it funny that all of the shows you talked about that I bolded are now cancelled or in syndication and not on major networks any more lol.
But you asked about white months and white organizations. There are plenty of months and caucuses dedicated to Europeans. You can find them on Wikipedia and they are as follows:
As you can see there are a lot of commemorative months for people of European descent including Polish, Irish, and German. The largest ethnicity of white descent is German. Practically all white people in this country have some German roots. Most of the whites I knew growing up were Polish, Irish, or German and they all had great festivals to boot!
Pick your caucus from above as well. This is a simple google but since you wanted someone to show you, there they are.
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Originally Posted by Redshadowz
While I do agree that there are a lot of benefits to being white. The questions really is, where do they come from?
For instance, the examples of white privilege given, could also mean that there is an "Asian privilege". I mean, how many Asians do you think are being stopped and frisked? No one thinks anything unusual about an Asian who speaks well. Or really, go down the list. Whatever the so-called white privileges are, Asians have them as well.
If it is true that Asians have as many or more so-called "privileges" as white people. Then does white privilege really exist?
If we try to understand what White privilege is, we merely need to look at Asians to understand it. White privilege comes from a cultural belief that white people(at least on average) are simply better people than are blacks, Hispanics, and Native-Americans. Asian privilege comes from the fact that Asians are also perceived to be superior to those same groups.
This perception of superiority is based on a view that white people and Asians are more intelligent, less criminal, and more trustworthy than other groups. If blacks were seen as more intelligent, less-criminal, and more trustworthy than whites, there would be a "black privilege" rather than a white privilege.
The real problem with racism, is that there is a lot of justification for it. And while black people seem to be annoyed about negative associations with blackness. They see no problem whatsoever talking about their superiority in certain athletics, as well as other physical endowments.
In regards to this, and the bolded above, there is actually no historical justification for the negative stereotyping of black people in this country. Black people have long been thought to be criminals and viewed negatively way before we were constantly touted via statistics as the group who committed tons of crime. Even back during the eras of lynching and forced servitude (not talking about slavery or the 19th century here either) black people were viewed negatively. Even the concept of the black criminal is in many ways a fallacy as in the past black people were routinely charged with and convicted of crimes they did not commit due to our racist government. (See "Slavery by Another Name" both book and documentary for evidence of this) So any statistics prior to 1970 really would reflect that negative, racist, bias. That said, there is still a racist bias in our criminal justice system. It is a fact that black people are treated more harshly, especially in regards to being arrested in comparison to other ethnic groups. ImMovingVerySoon stated that "whites do drugs at the same rate as blacks but who is more likely to be arrested?" Actually, whites use drugs at a higher rate than blacks in this country yet a large degree of black people are arrested for this infraction versus white offenders and people continue to believe that black people do drugs more than other groups due to the negative portrayals of black drug addicts in the media over white drug addicts.
People here also like to tout the FBI statistics on this forum, yet those statistics cover only arrests and since black people are arrested more based on the historical racism exhibited in our criminal justice system, it makes sense that the blacks are shown on the FBI tables at a rate that exceeds their population in most categories (except DUI I might add where whites are over represented, which makes sense as most black people are aware that they are more likely to be stopped driving in the first place so are smart enough most of the time not to drink and drive, also DUI does cover drug use and whites use drugs at a higher level than blacks do so they would be more likely to fail a sobriety test than a black person).
And black people are not the ones who brought up the perceived "physical prowess" of blacks versus other ethnicities. These were originally brought up by whites who wanted to use this sort of science to prove that black people are better off being manual laborers so they sought to prove that blacks physically were suited for manual labor and sought to prove that blacks were intellectually inferior to other groups. The jokes that comedians tell about endowment is actually proven not to be true, they are just jokes and not many black people take those seriously.
Wanted to also point out the fact that on the whole black people have risen substantially since the end of overt state sponsored racism in all socio-economic categories, yet many of you fail to focus on that - educational achievement is up, less black people are in prison, health is better, amount of blacks living in poverty was over 50% in 1960 but is about 25% now so that was cut by more than half in 50 years, teen pregnancy rates have declined the most of any other ethnicity since the 1990s among black teens, crime in historic, urban black neighborhoods has decreased substantially, yet people would never know it to look at the news. Practically in every category black people are getting better, yet black Americans are still viewed negatively and are feared just because they are black. Many don't even know that less black people live in the "inner city" today and that most black people in this country live in suburban areas now contrary to what you wrote in regards to black people living in "dangerous areas." People perceive the areas that black people live in as dangerous only because black people live in those areas. In many cases they are not and blacks as a whole do not overwhelmingly live in the dangerous inner cities anymore.
ETA: I find it odd that so many also want to tell black people as a whole to "better your communities" when actual statistics backs up the fact that black people HAVE bettered their communities. All of the items I mentioned above are true, in all of those areas black people have risen above the lows of our history quite substantially, yet those gains are rarely if ever acknowledged and the fact that we still as a group lag behind others who did not and do not have to rise upward economically but do so under the grip of centuries old stereotypes, is somehow seen as proof still today of our inferiority. These ideals are a part of the American conscious. Asians being smart are a part of the American consciousness. Hispanics being hard workers is a part of the American consciousness and American Indians being drunks are a part of American consciousness. All Americans have them and therefore blacks and American Indians especially along with Hispanics who are also touted as being criminally minded have a tougher burden to bare in our society. Blacks are not given consideration to achieve in a higher level position based on ethnicity in a lot of situations. Even Asians are not FYI because they are not thought of as being innovative in a corporate setting. But they have the positive stereotype of being smart, people will expect that from all levels of American society and view them positively. When a black person exhibits behavior or achievement contrary to the black stereotype of dumb and criminal, they are thought to be an exceptional black person lol.
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Originally Posted by momonkey
Do you believe blacks score significantly lower on standardized tests or are the scores of whites increased as a result of white privilige?
Actually yes, teachers expect more of white and Asian kids than they do black kids. When black kids are put into an educational location where they are taught and expected to do just as well as other groups, black children excel and do just as well. Here in Atlanta we have some horrible segregated schools where those in poor black neighborhoods have ratings on the national sites of 1-2 out of 10, yet in those same areas there are charter schools who have kids that came from those same crappy 1-2 rated schools and the charters give those kids additional tutoring and fully expect, whether they have a "involved parents" or not, those children to do well and they do. The top rated high school in Atlanta is a KIPP charter school that is over 95% black. After them are highly advanced high school "academies" that have programs with extremely high expectations for students and academic support. My son goes to a charter school that last year was the best performing 5th grade in our district (I think they were the best public school in the state actually) and our school is 88% black and 80% low income. Our kids get individualized attention and are expected to exceed requirements in regards to math and reading and due to the dedication of the staff at the school and the lack of stereotyping or pitying black students, these kids perform very well and there is not black/white gap.
Last edited by residinghere2007; 02-18-2014 at 11:36 AM..
To be clear, you have not even remotely ****** me off. I don't know what ever gave you that impresssion. Fact is, this kind of discussion is my idea of relaxation.
Secondly, an even greater source of curiosity for me is why it is you don't think I'm the person I described in #8. Are you basing this on your belief that a this type of thing doesn't still happen in the workplace, or is it that you don't think a black person could earn his/her way to this position? Or, is it something else? Again, to be clear, the story is not touching...the story is true. And it's happened more than once, at more than one company.
And finally, it seems that you have completely ignored the points made in this link. (Different link from original post, same information).
Go to this link and answer those 26 questions for yourself. Answer honestly, and you may begin to understand what white privilege is.
I can't really know if your "character" is real or not.
I cannot tell exactly, but your story doesn't sound convincing to me... a powerful black executive, vicepresident in a financial institution, with 27 years experience... from my own experience, these kind of people don't waste their time talking with a recalcitrant ****...
But I think your're a white man, maybe from an association related with civil rights or something like that, that with best intentions tries to convice people about those things...
I could answer in this forum those 26 questions, but we'll end up repeating the same we did some post ago...
I do not believe in invisible white privileges, but everybody can see that some other groups (incluiding mine ) have real and visible provileges by law.
Gracias.
My point (from way back on post #71) is that there are notable exceptions - positive, negative or just different - in every ethnic or racial group. Asian gangs may not necessarily be a national phenomenon, but I would presume that their existence in presumably lower-income/working-class neighborhoods pulls down the high median income and low crime rate that you espouse below.
Most of my response to this segment was made in my previous comment. I did want to add that except for entrepreneurs from the local convenience store owner to Yahoo founder Jerry Yang, it is relatively rare to see Asian-Americans in upper management. I don't recall if someone already quoted statistics here, but if one looks at Fortune 500 CEOs, one will find few Asians, other people of color or women in general.
If Asians receive "almost every...privilege" as Whites per your quote, doesn't that mean there is a still a difference?
I would agree that one could view inequality as a "Black Penalty".I also believe there is an Asian penalty, Hispanic penalty, and Native American penalty. (There is a female penalty too which can be exacerbated by being a woman of color...but that is perhaps getting beyond the scope of this discussion.) I think there was some agreement earlier in this thread that there is prejudice between different minority groups.
I will grant that physical differences might make a difference in certain sports but again it comes back to culture, resources and often geography. For example, the world is catching up to the US in terms of basketball talent. Their Olympic teams can hold their own and occasionally even beat the US teams. NBA teams, particularly the San Antonio Spurs, are starting to look like the United Nations. Going back to tennis and golf, there may be more undiscovered Tigers, Serenas and Venuses in the world who may not have had the access to golf courses and tennis courts to realize their talents. Why is that? (See the title of this thread.)
But there are not only two races. Again, I believe socioeconomics plays an important role.
Also, I don't like having to put on my "moderator hat", but...
Calling someone "stupid" vis-a-vis their "argument" is not in the spirit of the Terms of Service.
Although I know you were speaking to me here, I do think there is a belief that lower-income/"poor" people are more likely to commit crimes, if only out of desperation of feeling they cannot improve their lot in life. Black-, Hispanic- and Native Americans as a whole have a higher % of poor people in their population compared to White Americans.
It would seem that Rev. Jackson has internalized his own "Black penalty" when it comes to (presumably) Blacks who are not dressed in what might be acceptable among those in the middle class and up.
I'm very familiar with the Chris Rock skit. One could say that some Black people shoot themselves in the proverbial foot. One could argue that after fifty years of mandated equal rights and affirmative action, African-Americans could have made up more ground that was lost in the 300 years preceding. Then again, some would argue that fifty years is not enough, especially if one believes white privilege still exists.
Out of 100 "Asians" compared to out of 100 "anglo whites" or even out of 100 "Hispanics": are the numbers of anglos that much higher in the upper levels of companies? It's well known that anglo whites are MOST people in the US; like about 6 to 1 to each "Hispanic" or Black. Asians are pretty rare.
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) have real and visible provileges by law.