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Old 02-16-2014, 08:49 AM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,210,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
The workers aren't being left to fend for themselves.
VW still plans to pursue a work council to provide labor representation.

Maybe this is a good move. If you all do like the German model then maybe this model is better than belonging to the UAW.
Maybe this is the way US labor should be represented.

The workers want representation..just not the UAW.

Yahoo!
"The outcome of the vote, however, does not change our goal of setting up a works council in Chattanooga," Gunnar Kilian, secretary general of VW's works council said in a statement on Sunday, adding workers continued to back the idea of labor representation at the plant.
It certainly makes sense to have those working there make the decisions as opposed to someone from outside that still gets paid while you aren't.

 
Old 02-16-2014, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Here
11,578 posts, read 13,950,520 times
Reputation: 7009
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81 View Post
See, the trouble with your post is that it's riddled with facts, which many, many conservatives bristle against.

The reason why conservatives gloat about VW rejecting the UAW is simply because they don't believe that workers deserve any rights or protections in the workplace. Never have, and never will. And they will fight tooth and nail against those who support the rights of workers, however peaceful they may be.
Yep. That must be it.
 
Old 02-16-2014, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,495,743 times
Reputation: 27720
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
It certainly makes sense to have those working there make the decisions as opposed to someone from outside that still gets paid while you aren't.
Honestly I don't think the UAW would transition to the German model.

The head of the works council in Germany is flying to the US to meet with the workers to form something.

I think more are upset about the UAW not getting in the door than then topic of labor representation.
The workers chose not to let the UAW represent them.
The German work council model will be used instead.

Maybe that is the new wave of the future for US workers.

Germany does have the most successful model of this so why not give it a shot.
It may just turn out to be the way of our future.
 
Old 02-16-2014, 08:55 AM
 
1,735 posts, read 1,770,320 times
Reputation: 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
The workers do want to be represented and VW is still going to create a jobs council.
The UAW won't be involved though.
I see this as a good thing bringing the German model over here.
Clean slate. Might be the best move for our future.


If the workers will be represented, and it seems so from VW mgmt comments, then why are you so upset that the workers chose not to belong to the UAW ?
Probably because US labor laws require some sort of representation (through the union usually) and do not exactly allow works councils (like in the EU) to be set up.
 
Old 02-16-2014, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,495,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e30is View Post
Probably because US labor laws require some sort of representation (through the union usually) and do not exactly allow works councils (like in the EU) to be set up.
And who is that protecting..the workers or the union ?

Time to change. The EU is full of work councils and they have BETTER labor representation with their companies than we do.

And the unions are dying in the private sector anyway.
They are a dinosaur in today's global economy.
 
Old 02-16-2014, 09:04 AM
 
1,735 posts, read 1,770,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
And who is that protecting..the workers or the union ?

Time to change. The EU is full of work councils and they have BETTER labor representation with their companies than we do.

And the unions are dying in the private sector anyway.
They are a dinosaur in today's global economy.
I'm on your side first. Second, I just think that's how most people would want representation here in the US using existing labor laws.
 
Old 02-16-2014, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,495,743 times
Reputation: 27720
Quote:
Originally Posted by e30is View Post
I'm on your side first. Second, I just think that's how most people would want representation here in the US using existing labor laws.
And maybe that's just because the unions won't allow any other kind.
We're not living in 1940 anymore.
Our labor competition is global and if we don't adapt and change we will be left in the dust.

The UAW campaigned to those workers telling them that no works council would work here in the US unless they were the ones representing the workers on that council.

Well it turns out that maybe the UAW was wrong. Maybe they're not needed anymore.
 
Old 02-16-2014, 09:29 AM
 
5,064 posts, read 5,730,610 times
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Union supporters here are raging about low salaries and benefits, but the workers at VW make better salaries than the UAW members. They were worried they would LOSE salary by voting in the UAW, plus they would have to pay dues out of those new lower salaries.
Also Obamacare is forcing companies to do away with "Cadillac" benefit programs that so many union employees have now.

Quote:
Pocketbook issues were also on opponents' minds, Jarvis said. Workers were suspicious that Volkswagen and the union might have already reached "cost containment" agreements that could have led to a cut in their hourly pay rate to that made by entry-level employees with the Detroit Three automakers, he said.
UAW drive falls short amid culture clash in Tennessee » Breaking News » The Herald Bulletin

The German style council seems like a great plan. Having the workers and management work together collaboratively is good for everyone. But that's not the way the UAW has ever done business, and there is no reason to believe they would now based on their history.

My MIL is visiting this weekend. She lives in a town that had a union factory. It was the biggest employer in that town. There were constant strikes. She said it seems like if the company was offering $12.99, the union would insist on striking for $13.01. The workers believed the job would never go away, so they could just fight for something more all the time. The factory closed in 2011, and those high paying jobs are gone. The economy in the area has been crushed. My MIL is a lifelong Democrat, but she said watching what the union has done to her area has turned her against the tactics of many of the unions.
 
Old 02-16-2014, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Flyover Country
26,211 posts, read 19,525,255 times
Reputation: 21679
Quote:
Originally Posted by brentwoodgirl View Post
Union supporters here are raging about low salaries and benefits, but the workers at VW make better salaries than the UAW members.
And they can thank the UAW for this being true. Being competitive with what other manufacturers are paying their employees is no coincidence, it's how these companies do business. There are "pay evaluations" done every year at many businesses, mine included, that survey competitors wages and adjust the pay for their employees accordingly.

Even voting down the UAW, the impact on these employees wages is self evident. Were it not the vote may have turned out different.

The rest of your anecdotal story I won't comment on, as the veracity of it cannot be confirmed.
 
Old 02-16-2014, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Flyover Country
26,211 posts, read 19,525,255 times
Reputation: 21679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
In past generations, unions did great work, resisting unscrupulous owners etc. and fighting for decent working conditions and workers' "rights". And they accomplished their goals. After they did all the fighting, bleeding, and dying, Congress then made laws mandating what the unions had achieved. Probably have to wonder how the unions felt about that - would have been nice if Congress had simply done that a few years earlier, BEFORE the unions had to rip their guts out, and save everybody a lot of trouble.

But now, unions have outgrown their usefulness. Unfortunately, they have turned to bleeding their companies, forcing outrageous wage scales, vacation schedules, retirement plans, etc., far beyond any reasonable and decent arrangements; and have been forcing comanies to cave to them or die. An example is the protests against Boeing opening a new plant in a state where union membership is NOT mandatory. The worthwhile things unions fought for so long ago, are still in place, and codified in Federal law, whether the plant is in (union) Washington State or (non-union) South Carolina. Forcing union membership now, is merely a way of forcing company-strangling perks and huge benefits rather than decent working conditions and wages (which the workers will get anyway).

Unions were good in their time. Since the things they fought for are now codified in Federal law, there is no more need for unions any more.
Ahh...the old "they have outlived their usefulness" canard peddled by conservatives. I'm not sure if this is a FOX News bullet point in all discussions on unions but I see it all the time from conservatives, most who just want others to be poor like they are, hence the union hatred.

Actually, your argument is true, but in reverse. It is unions who are being bled white, with workers forced to accept less pay and less healthcare every contract, and I would like to know what specifics about "vacation time" and "pay scales" that is beyond a "reasonable and decent arrangement".

I get that alot of poor, non union working whites have contempt for their middle class workers, and most of these types are your FOX News watching conservatives, who never say a word about management compensation at Fortune 500 companies, they always attack the blue collar guy making 45K a year as being "excessive" because there is a union in his facility. And that is what they are repeatedly told is wrong with all companies in America, the men and women pulling down 45K should be making less, with no vacation time.

As far as Boeing, workers were given a choice: Accept our terms or lose your job when we leave the state. It used to take 8 years to make top scale for various pay grades at Boeing, now it takes 18 years. All new hires won't be eligible for a pension, either, which is what most corporations in America are now doing (except for upper management, of course). And I'm not sure but they might have a two-tier pay scale in place for new hires as well. (something most union shops are now doing) And there were plenty of other concessions made at Boeing, like greatly increased health care costs, but it basically is now a "take it or leave it" scenario with workers in America, including unions. You won't be seeing the strikes from union employees you used to, as unions have largely been broken by their employers in many respects, unless both sides are negotiating in good faith.

And with companies like VW, I believe that is the rule.
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