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Old 02-16-2014, 11:12 AM
Location: Pa
20,300 posts, read 22,215,838 times
Reputation: 6553


Originally Posted by odanny View Post
Ahh...the old "they have outlived their usefulness" canard peddled by conservatives. I'm not sure if this is a FOX News bullet point in all discussions on unions but I see it all the time from conservatives, most who just want others to be poor like they are, hence the union hatred.

Actually, your argument is true, but in reverse. It is unions who are being bled white, with workers forced to accept less pay and less healthcare every contract, and I would like to know what specifics about "vacation time" and "pay scales" that is beyond a "reasonable and decent arrangement".

I get that alot of poor, non union working whites have contempt for their middle class workers, and most of these types are your FOX News watching conservatives, who never say a word about management compensation at Fortune 500 companies, they always attack the blue collar guy making 45K a year as being "excessive" because there is a union in his facility. And that is what they are repeatedly told is wrong with all companies in America, the men and women pulling down 45K should be making less, with no vacation time.

As far as Boeing, workers were given a choice: Accept our terms or lose your job when we leave the state. It used to take 8 years to make top scale for various pay grades at Boeing, now it takes 18 years. All new hires won't be eligible for a pension, either, which is what most corporations in America are now doing (except for upper management, of course). And I'm not sure but they might have a two-tier pay scale in place for new hires as well. (something most union shops are now doing) And there were plenty of other concessions made at Boeing, like greatly increased health care costs, but it basically is now a "take it or leave it" scenario with workers in America, including unions. You won't be seeing the strikes from union employees you used to, as unions have largely been broken by their employers in many respects, unless both sides are negotiating in good faith.

And with companies like VW, I believe that is the rule.
The company I work for compares salaries and benefits as well. It used to be the ones that were comparable were Pope and Talbot, Techniglass and Dupont.
Techniglass and Pope are union shops. Techniglass moved south and pope has been sold 3 times in the last 20 years and is no longer comparable in pay scale. Dupont, Sylvannia and now the gas drillers are who we are compared to. None are Union shops.
Our retirement used to be Stock ownership and typically if you stayed 30 years you could expect to retire a millionaire. They changed it (for the better) to a 401k that you can contribute too and decide where the money is invested. I split mine 3 ways and have done very well.
Todays new people will never see the company contribution I enjoy. But they don't have to wait 5 years before investment starts either...
One can argue for or against Unions and I think it depends upon the company you work for if you need one. I work for Procter and Gamble and they have always taken pretty good care of their employees since the company was founded. I don't need nor want a union. If I worked for Pope and Talbot I would have been begging for a Union if they didn't already have one.
The global economy is in my opinion what truly broke the backs of American Unions. That and a FED signing trade deals like NAFTA and making it tax friendly to ship jobs over seas.
I am no great fan of modern day Unions or thug tactics. I grew up in a union town and let me tell you they were absolutely ruthless in their approach. Vandalizing peoples homes and cars, terrorizing family members were SOP.
The Union has tried to get in at my mill 3 times now in my 22 years. It has failed miserably all 3 times. They were at least honest. They wouldn't be able to deliver for us more than we already had. What they were trying to sell is by going Union it would help other factories that are Union.
The only ones where I work that seriously wanted the Union were the lazy slackers. That was about 20% of our work force and that was about how the vote played out all 3 times.
Unions are not evil in nature. Often they are corrupted and as many have said I don't want to pay a dues that will will be donated to politics I disagree with. I don't want to pay for guys to defend lazy slackers. It's damned hard to get fired from P&G. It's hard to get rid of the slackers as it is and I don't want to make it any harder.
The other issue I have is with seniority trumps all mentality. I would rather advance a 3 year Tech who busts their butt over a 20 year lump of fat. If we had been Union I would never have advanced as quickly as I did or been given the jobs as quickly.
I know when I visit our sister plant in Greenbay which is Union that I never would have achieved what I have there. They are a good plant and they deliver well, but we can ship product to their docks cheaper than they can produce it with the same exact equipment. Our pay is comparable as are our benefits, they use more people to do the same job. What keeps them in the game is their coal fired power plant making electricity. The game for us improved with natural gas. Now we have 2 gas turbines and a wind farm. We don't just produce paper products anymore we produce a surplus of power as well.
I would work at Greenbay. They are good people and I have friends among them. I don't believe that they need a union or need to waste money on dues that serves them no purpose.

Old 02-16-2014, 11:23 AM
Location: NJ
18,665 posts, read 19,964,883 times
Reputation: 7315
Originally Posted by odanny View Post
Okay, great. I only hope that you are on the other end of the ledger someday, and your employer cuts your pay and your healthcare and says "You don't like it? Quit."

That would be karma, and sometimes, karma happens.
It doesn't change the fact of who created the job. Just as our cars and homes (once paid off) belong to us, the jobs of a corp belong to the corp.
Old 02-16-2014, 11:28 AM
1,735 posts, read 1,769,483 times
Reputation: 522
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
Can't make this stuff up.
Old 02-16-2014, 11:28 AM
Location: Sango, TN
24,868 posts, read 24,380,865 times
Reputation: 8672

If the good folks who work there don't want to unionize that's their business.

I support them for or against.

Unions don't do well in the south. They have a bad reputation due to years of abuse and unadulterated support for democratic candidates.

Probably a whole lot more to do with it then anything.
Old 02-16-2014, 11:32 AM
79,914 posts, read 44,178,048 times
Reputation: 17209
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post

If the good folks who work there don't want to unionize that's their business.

I support them for or against.

Unions don't do well in the south. They have a bad reputation due to years of abuse and unadulterated support for democratic candidates.

Probably a whole lot more to do with it then anything.
Unions have a lot of support in the southern coal mines. My point? Generalizations are never a good argument.
Old 02-16-2014, 12:12 PM
Location: Houston, TX
1,138 posts, read 3,289,338 times
Reputation: 818
This is great news. Unions are a cancer to everything it touches. Just ask the people in California and Illinois.
Old 02-16-2014, 12:19 PM
Location: Houston, TX
1,138 posts, read 3,289,338 times
Reputation: 818
Originally Posted by gmagoo View Post
Good for you. You`re getting union benefits without having to pay dues. Do you know why that is? Do you know who brought you that time and a half pay for overtime? Do you know why you get bonus pay for Sunday work? Do you know why you get paid vacation time? You`re welcome.
Unions do not have a monopoly on, nor did they invent good-paying jobs with benefits. Henry Ford implemented that model in his company long before the advent of Labor Unions. In other words, wages and benefits in this country increase in spite of Unions, not because of it.
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