Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I agree with you...........all are. You don't get thrown out on the street so to say anywhere. I was making a point of why gays don't just start a gay church and get married there. They can't.
Uh, yes they can and have. Did you not see the link I posted above? I've been into a gay-friendly and founded church myself, where they do perform same-sex wedding ceremonies... even in states where gay marriage isn't legal yet, a church/temple can still perform the ceremonies if they choose. Or not, as the case may be. But what exactly IS your point? Do you still not understand the difference between a religious institution and a public-serving business?
Based on this following post, I would say that's a big no - you are obviously STILL confused over these differences! What does baking a cake in a public storefront have to do with gay inclusion in churches? You're not only stretching, you have completely broken the point now.
Quote:
So you agree folks can make a cake for who they want?
WHAT? Where did you get that from? A church is a church, a business is not a church and has to follow the laws concerning discrimination.
Yeah, we've only told him that about 30 times on this thread alone - and to every other confused conservative on the other zillion threads on this topic. And they claim liberals are dense?
I think it's time to summarize this topic, since we are literally going in circles on all of these threads:
- A church is not a business, and thus not subject to commerce-related laws against discrimination.
- Any business that is open to the public (i.e. not at your home and/or membership-only) is subject to anti-discrimination laws.
- Businesses cannot refuse service to anyone at will, despite those clever little "we reserve the right" signs; they can only refuse services based on things like behavior, attire, and anything else that wouldn't fall under "protected class" categories. You can kick out a gay person for smoking or breaking stuff in your store, but you cannot kick them out merely for existing as a homosexual.
- EVERYONE is protected by these laws, and EVERYONE is part of at least one protected class... unless you are genderless, race-less, etc.
- A business cannot be forced to carry a product (hence the failure of those "should a Jewish butcher have to serve pork?" questions), they must only serve what products/services they DO provide without discrimination. So if your restaurant has pork, you must offer that pork to any paying customer.
I think it's time to summarize this topic, since we are literally going in circles on all of these threads:
- A church is not a business, and thus not subject to commerce-related laws against discrimination.
- Any business that is open to the public (i.e. not at your home and/or membership-only) is subject to anti-discrimination laws.
- Businesses cannot refuse service to anyone at will, despite those clever little "we reserve the right" signs; they can only refuse services based on things like behavior, attire, and anything else that wouldn't fall under "protected class" categories. You can kick out a gay person for smoking or breaking stuff in your store, but you cannot kick them out merely for existing as a homosexual.
- EVERYONE is protected by these laws, and EVERYONE is part of at least one protected class... unless you are genderless, race-less, etc.
- A business cannot be forced to carry a product (hence the failure of those "should a Jewish butcher be forced to serve pork?" questions), they can only be forced to serve what products/services they DO provide without discrimination.
Are we clear now??
I was pretty clear before this thread started but yeah, well said.
Not to mention the 1st only protects people from GOVERNMENT action. Private citizens are still free to laugh at the fools and call them fools. Especially when they're dumb enough to think the 1st means they can discriminate against other people.
I didn't relize that a court of law was a private citizen
I discussed that over lunch with my pastor about year ago. I'm not going to budge on the stance that homosexual activity is forbidden behavior for Christians. Yet, there are many other forbidden behaviors for Christians, and very few of them do we require people to be totally free from failure before we are willing to accept them within the Body of Christ.
True, but I've encountered many Christians (and people of other faiths) who seem REALLY focused on the homosexual thing. So you agree that is highly hypocritical of them?
Some even try to claim it's THE big sin, when in reality the primary rules are the Ten Commandments... and who among us hasn't broken at least one of those? I have, but I'm guessing those anti-gay bakers would still make me a cake. Because, well, at least she isn't a lesbian!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
Well, if you are a Jew, I already accept the fact that you don't believe what I believe about the New Testament...and the issue of homosexuality isn't even the beginning of that disagreement.
Fair enough. But even Christians agree the Torah is the "original Bible," right? Or am I wrong on that? There are also many versions of the New Testament, so your interpretation differs even from other Christians. How else do you explain gay Christians and gay-friendly churches?
But we're getting off topic, as I don't think anyone here is arguing against freedom of religious beliefs or worship. We are discussing the laws as they apply to public businesses, and nobody is exempt from these laws by reason of religion. Nobody. A Muslim business owner couldn't turn me away for being Jewish, could they?
I was pretty clear before this thread started but yeah, well said.
I'm not sure why I bother, when the forum's gone in circles on this subject a zillion times! But maybe we can just refer back to that list, whenever somebody comes storming in with "soooo, does that mean I can't kick out a customer who's naked and screaming obscenities, just because they're gay? And does a Muslim have to start serving pork in their restaurant?" I want to myself - every. time.
There are several passages in the Bible where there is a clear distiction made between religious and secular duties. Jesus uses a coin for one such example -- "Render unto Ceasar...." Governmental authority trumps personal values once a person enters the marketplace and offers a service for money...(see reference to coin above). The government says you can't discriminate once you operate a business in the public marketplace.
My church routinely refuses to offer Holy Communion to folks whose beliefs are outside of a narrowly defined boundary, even other devout Christians, and that is perfectly fine...it's religious. If, under some bizarre or absurd circumstance, someone opens an establishment and offers Holy Communion for a fee they would be stepping outside the religious realm and into the commercial marketplace and (I think) would have to serve whoever came in the door...they couldn't impose a religious test even if the product was of religious value. It would be like selling Bibles or icons or other religious items no matter what the religious beliefs of the saleperson are, the product is for sale in the marketplace. In the marketplace, there's no difference between a cake or a Bible.
Now, I have a second question becase I don't know the answer...what about a barter situation? Do the same rules apply?
Let's say I bake a cake and offer it for exchange as a barter and someone shows up and offers me a bushel of apples. Let's say that we agree that we have a fair exchange -- apples for cake. Am I required to follow through and provide the cake if my values (religious or not) are at odds with the person with the apples? If a second person arrives with an identical bushel of apples and he meets my values test, may I barter my cake for his apples and refuse the first guy? (Knowing me, I'll probably just eat the cake while I'm trying to decide.)
You need to prove it is about religious freedom to make that argument, you still havent.
That is why im asking for the verse that says it is biblical wrong to serve gay people.
Constitutionality comes after you have verify your claim or of religion.
If it's for a same sex "wedding"
lifney eiver lo sieten michshol
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
