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The bill was thought to easily pass the legislature but now not so easily after an intense Asian-American backlash. I've always said the Dem party is the one that is most shaky in the long term. When you build a party on ethnic resentment and don't be surprised when it dissolves into ethnic infighting.
Because Asians are not in fact 40% of our intellectual elite.
I suspect they may be more than their demographic share but by a small percentage not a factor of 3X.
You suspect? Not surprising that your argument is based on supposition. Asians may not be 40% of our "intellectual elite" for the whole country, but in California they likely are.
Here is the top decile of SAT II scores for UC incoming freshmen in 2000:
So practically we are singling out Asians for special education privileges far above what they can legitimately claim.
You've got it completely backwards. These schools (like Cal Tech) are singling out the top performers and best qualified students without regard to race, that's why they have so many Asian students. They're not accepting Asians because they're Asian, they're accepting them because they're the most qualified.
Affirmative action, on the other hand, is exactly what you describe: singling people out for special education privileges above what they can legitimately claim.
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Originally Posted by lvoc
And this is based upon certain cultural and family patterns and social workings that may in fact may make Asians less valuable then their premium education would indicate.
Now you're stereotyping Asians as rote-memorizing robots who won't be that successful in the real world?
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Originally Posted by lvoc
YOu need to walk carefully so that you don't get tripped up by standard Asian stereotypes.
You mean like you just did?
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Originally Posted by lvoc
But the criteria being used is probably incomplete and not approaching the full need of the society.
Now you're resorting to vague and arbitrary concepts about the "needs" of society?
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Originally Posted by lvoc
I remain somewhat skeptical of any groups that end up with 4.15 averages on a 4.0 base. The system is being worked.
Now you're accusing them of systemic cheating?
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Originally Posted by lvoc
I would much rather see a system where the average is well below 4.0. And perhaps a lottery for enrollment for all those who meet a suitable score.
I think that's how the Soviet Union used to do it. Maybe we should have a lottery system for who gets to buy a car and a lottery system for who gets to shop at the grocery store (like Venezuela), maybe a lottery system for who gets a job.
I'm sure our elite institutions will love your system when they lose out on the Michio Kakus and Stephen Hawkings of the world because their names didn't get called in the lottery. But maybe they can take solace in knowing the guy making their Frappuchino at Starbucks who dropped out 2nd semester had a "suitable score."
You suspect? Not surprising that your argument is based on supposition. Asians may not be 40% of our "intellectual elite" for the whole country, but in California they likely are.
Here is the top decile of SAT II scores for UC incoming freshmen in 2000:
You've got it completely backwards. These schools (like Cal Tech) are singling out the top performers and best qualified students without regard to race, that's why they have so many Asian students. They're not accepting Asians because they're Asian, they're accepting them because they're the most qualified.
You apparently have never been there. I have actually interviewed a few thousand engineers and computer scientists.
I can do an interview and demonstrate pretty well that half or two thirds of the top graduates don't know their azz from a hole in the wall in about 15 minutes. And it is the rote learners...they memorization folk. Even the great memories can be shown not to think very well.
How? A simple basic engineering equation they all know but cannot deal with if manipulated outside of the standard range.
Does this mean they are not good engineers or scientists? No of course not. But they cannot think outside the course outline. A major failing in engineering education.
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Affirmative action, on the other hand, is exactly what you describe: singling people out for special education privileges above what they can legitimately claim.
Now you're stereotyping Asians as rote-memorizing robots who won't be that successful in the real world?
You mean like you just did?
Now you're resorting to vague and arbitrary concepts about the "needs" of society?
Now you're accusing them of systemic cheating?
Read for content. I singled out all who do that. It is somewhat sour grapes. My mind never worked that way so I could not do it...But yes they all (Asian and the rest) basically cheat because they can.
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I think that's how the Soviet Union used to do it. Maybe we should have a lottery system for who gets to buy a car and a lottery system for who gets to shop at the grocery store (like Venezuela), maybe a lottery system for who gets a job.
I'm sure our elite institutions will love your system when they lose out on the Michio Kakus and Stephen Hawkings of the world because their names didn't get called in the lottery. But maybe they can take solace in knowing the guy making their Frappuchino at Starbucks who dropped out 2nd semester had a "suitable score."
And again you must have been scared by the SATs as a child. I did the task for 30 years successfully. I had many employees of many ethnic backgrounds and skills. It does not correlate as you appear to believe.
So we don't do it correctly. Do I have a better system...well yeah but only in a narrow space. What we need is that sort of system in a large space. Hard problem.
You apparently have never been there. I have actually interviewed a few thousand engineers and computer scientists.
I can do an interview and demonstrate pretty well that half or two thirds of the top graduates don't know their azz from a hole in the wall in about 15 minutes. And it is the rote learners...they memorization folk. Even the great memories can be shown not to think very well.
How? A simple basic engineering equation they all know but cannot deal with if manipulated outside of the standard range.
Does this mean they are not good engineers or scientists? No of course not. But they cannot think outside the course outline. A major failing in engineering education.
Your argument seems to be based solely on conjecture and anecdotes. The SATs, particularly in today's age, contain a lot of problems that require quite a bit of critical thinking and problem-solving skills. You can't really score in the top one or two percentiles from rote memorization.
Meanwhile...Twitter, Google, Apple, and everyone else is hiring them for some reason:
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Asian-Americans make up half of the Bay Area's technology workforce
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Asian-American software developers, in particular, saw huge gains all around the Bay Area: from nearly 45 percent of those workers in 2000 to more than 53 percent in Alameda County; and from nearly 50 percent to nearly 60 percent in both San Mateo and Santa Clara counties, the center of Silicon Valley.
And again you must have been scared by the SATs as a child. I did the task for 30 years successfully. I had many employees of many ethnic backgrounds and skills. It does not correlate as you appear to believe.
Scared by the SATs as a child? What is that even supposed to mean? I'm not sure what led you to that conclusion (or any other) considering that I'm arguing for a merit-based system and that I scored very well on it.
Regardless, the problem is not even black and Hispanic students not getting into colleges and STEM programs, the problem is them not graduating. From the previous article:
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While 34 percent of African-American and Hispanic students start out in engineering across the country, only 13 percent leave with degrees
Accepting less qualified students based on race is not going to solve that, and it punishes and disincentivizes hard work and placing a priority on education. Furthermore, it sullies the reputation of underrepresented minority students who achieved what they did through merit by creating the perception that they were accepted to college and pushed through school only because of their race. If we must give one group preferential treatment it should be based on income/class and not race.
Your argument seems to be based solely on conjecture and anecdotes. The SATs, particularly in today's age, contain a lot of problems that require quite a bit of critical thinking and problem-solving skills. You can't really score in the top one or two percentiles from rote memorization.
Meanwhile...Twitter, Google, Apple, and everyone else is hiring them for some reason:
Uhhh Bull Sh*t. Based upon 25 years experience hiring the best of technical types. There is no way to ask a hard technical question in a SAT format. You start off with something basic - a three term equation..and go from there. You provide hints up front to give the kid a shot. You make it clear that it is not the way they handled that equation the last time they saw it.
A very few jump on it and pick it up and run with it. Those are the true geniuses and generally very difficult to actually hire. Others pick up the thread with a little assistance and run with it. Then you introduce a little more information.
The only bad thing about it is you can't publish it or any similar process as they are mastered by the technically astute in minutes. But that does not mean they would ever find the answer in the open. And note the answer is absolutely obvious to everyone with reasonable technical skills. It is not a hard problem...just outside the box.
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Scared by the SATs as a child? What is that even supposed to mean? I'm not sure what led you to that conclusion (or any other) considering that I'm arguing for a merit-based system and that I scored very well on it.
Regardless, the problem is not even black and Hispanic students not getting into colleges and STEM programs, the problem is them not graduating. From the previous article:
Accepting less qualified students based on race is not going to solve that, and it punishes and disincentivizes hard work and placing a priority on education. Furthermore, it sullies the reputation of underrepresented minority students who achieved what they did through merit by creating the perception that they were accepted to college and pushed through school only because of their race. If we must give one group preferential treatment it should be based on income/class and not race.
And you are missing the whole point. What you are doing is suggesting the promotion of students based on diligence...not intelligence or talent. The hard part of these discussions is that one is talking about a set of candidates all of whom are capable of mastering the skills required. We are not introducing the minimal high school graduate into electrical engineering at UCLA. This is the question as to whether over 40% of the best and brightest in CA are Asians. I very strongly doubt it. The people who are getting into Berkeley are those who have mastered the system for getting in...not the best and brightest.
And you are missing the whole point. What you are doing is suggesting the promotion of students based on diligence...not intelligence or talent. The hard part of these discussions is that one is talking about a set of candidates all of whom are capable of mastering the skills required. We are not introducing the minimal high school graduate into electrical engineering at UCLA. This is the question as to whether over 40% of the best and brightest in CA are Asians. I very strongly doubt it. The people who are getting into Berkeley are those who have mastered the system for getting in...not the best and brightest.
That is most definitely not what I'm suggesting. Work ethic is only part of the equation, albeit a very large part, as it should be. Obviously you must have the natural abilities as well or you're never going to get into the elite schools, let alone succeed once you do. You have to have both.
People of average intelligence, however, do not score 2100+ on the SAT regardless of how much they study. They don't score 130+ on IQ tests from studying either. People who put up those kinds of scores are most definitely among the "best and brightest" and to suggest that Asian-Americans only outperform everyone else on these tests because they work harder is to ignore reality.
From the Princeton study:
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Average scores for applicants in each race/ethnic group are asfollows: white (1347), African American (1202), Hispanic (1230), Asian
(1363), and other races (1322).
This study was performed using average SAT scores (1600 scale) of admitted students at top 50 universities. The average for admitted African Americans was 1202. A relatively gifted and talented student can completely coast through high school and put up 1200 on the SAT (1600 scale) with relative ease. So where are you going to come up with these "best and brightest" underrepresented hidden gems that you think colleges are passing on? Are you just going to take a flyer on someone with a 1050 SATs and keep your fingers crossed? The odds of someone with an SAT score that low being successful at a top college is extremely low.
You can attribute it to whatever you want but there isn't this big pool of best and brightest African American students that colleges are turning down. There just isn't, and top colleges aren't and shouldn't be in the business of accepting average to poor achievers in the blind hope that they'll suddenly start overachieving if accepted. Colleges fight over black and Hispanic students with good scores as it is, particularly if they're poor as these are considered "twofers," meaning they fill diversity needs for both race and socioeconomic class.
Last edited by EugeneOnegin; 03-14-2014 at 11:09 PM..
Really? Or are Nigerian black people just utilizing a system that they greatly benefit from? Take those pretty statistics about Nigerian Americans with a grain of salt. Their success is not just their own. They have a lot to thank affirmative action for.
Never the less they are a good example of what other black people in America could be if they put their minds to it.
Based off the Nigerians I've met here, that's not true at all. AA is not responsible for their success. Nigerians in the US are a largely self-selecting group made up primarily of educated professionals like doctors, nurses, engineers, lawyers, educators, etc.
I'm not surprised. AA is the absolute worst policy consideration ever created by a group of white, guilty liberals. There are still people alive today who spent time in Japanese internment camps - citizens no less - yet they are now discriminated against because 250 years ago certain slave owners in southern states kept blacks as slaves. I am sorry, but I will never, and I mean never, support "affirmative action" as long as it discriminates against Asians in favor of other "minorities".
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