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Once again, your ideas are noble. I can't say you're wrong. I'm simply once again suggesting that the war on terror isn't really a conventional war at all. And for this reason, its abhorrent qualities make it so repulsive to our "western" sensibilities, that many of us, I think, don't see this as the way we "want" our soldiers being used.
The "enemies" aren't soldiers, in the sense that ours are. They represent no conventional government, and their objectives really aren't negotiable. They don't want the conventional things that wars are usually fought over (territory, shipping access, or material goods). They are directed by "God", and their enemies are God's enemies--and as such, those enemies (us, and the rest of the 'infidels') must be destroyed. There is little room in this type of conflict for any traditional type of negotiations or compromise.
In view of the above, we really don't have anything to "throw at them" that would compare with their level of commitment and fanaticism. About the best that we can come up with are our military. But I'm not sure this is really a "military" issue. And I'm not sure exactly where the "morality" fits in, or how far we'll get taking the "high road".
You're right, in that we are in danger of "stooping to their level". On the other hand, these apparently are not people who can be "beaten". They don't seem interested in any sort of surrender, or have any desire to co-exist with us AFTER hostilities cease. I'm not sure we can apply ALL of the traditional rules of decency in fighting such an enemy. We COULD always just give up, of course---come home---and hope they don't follow us, and all agree among ourselves to live from now on in a sort of hyper-protective police state. But if that idea turned out to be wrong, I'm not sure we could ever "go back".
Meanwhile, I don't have any more insightful suggestions. I can only reiterate that there are wide degrees of the concept of "torture", and that NOBODY is going to sit by and simply volunteer information to us because they have a guilty conscience. I don't like the idea of "coercing" anybody at ALL---but I see it as a neccessary evil...the same as handcuffing people, or locking them up. And it's a long way from "waterboarding" to serious, Saddam-style torture.
Sorry I just can't get behind the "Ghandi" example. Ghandi basically let himself be beaten and abused, and overcame the big British "bullies" by sheer force of public opinion. Eventually the British authorities felt so "silly" beating up on a defenseless man, and the British public got so disgusted, that the British authorities "backed off"--and eventually out of India altogether-- largely out of the simple moral pressure of "good" people.
It seems to me that if we today were to use Ghandi's approach, we'd allow al-Qaeda to blow up an America city--then another one or two--until al-Qaeda began to feel so "gulty" that they became embarrassed, backed off, and went home. Somehow, though, I'm not confident that al-Qaeda would respond to 'public disapproval' in quite the way the British did in India. Sorry, but I don't think the 'Ghandi' approach would work for us...
BTW- as unpopular as it may be to say, several high-ranking al-Qaeda captives have in fact "spilled the beans", and given up useful information, after being 'persuaded' to do so. It's ugly, it may be inefficient, but there is some validity in "getting people to talk" who otherwise wouldn't be inclined to do so.
We don't need al-Qaeda to respond in the way the British did. We need the global community as a whole to pressure against any country that would support them. We cannot be a lone crusader. That will never work to the extent that we would need it to work. We will only look like aggressors and be reviled.
Here's a good question to ask, are our global policies serving only our economic interests, and are those policies visually detrimental to other nations (especially ones not responsible for attacks on the U.S.)?
With 75K-85K DOCUMENTED (there could be many more undocumented) deaths in Iraq compared to a bit over 3000 American deaths, coupled with the abuse of prisoners we only make ourselves a better target for terrorists and we make more people likely to provide safe harbor to terrorists.
That's a good point. But, on the other hand, I wouldn't want the hands tied (no pun intended) of others who are responsible for the safety of my family either from the fear of being prosecuted, by outlawing such actions.
I would. People make wrong judgments all the time. Look at convictions overturned by DNA. Look at the 78K-85K dead in Iraq because we "thought" they had WMDs.
So we kill some innocent people because of our fear of being attacked? We imprison them and we're ok with it. We really have become Oceania. Where is the Ministry of Love to take me away and make sure I'm completely subservient. Its amazing, people will do whatever the government wants to soothe their fears of being blown up, but raise taxes to fund school programs or rebuild roads and they'll go insane about government control.
I'm sure there was at one time a Japanese soldier who said, "commander, a few slivers of bamboo under their nails and they will tell us everything" or "Mein Fuer, if we gass a few million Jews and gypsies, it will make the motherland safe and secure" I'm sure they all said, it is bad, but necessary for our survival. Given enough time and a friendly press and one could make masses beg for hell and call it paradise.
“My instinct as an individualist and artist has always warned me most urgently against this capacity of men for becoming drunk on collective suffering, collective pride, collective hatred, and collective honor. When this morbid exaltation becomes perceptible in a room, a hall, a village, a city, or a country, I grow cold and distrustful; a shudder comes over me, for already, while most of my fellow men are still weeping with rapture and enthusiasm, still cheering and venting protestations of brotherhood, I see blood flowing and cities going up in flames.”
— Hermann Hesse
The War-mongering Christian Right Needs To Answer That!!!!!!!!!
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It Is Torture, But Necessary....
that would get them to talk and learn not to mess with us.
