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I remember when they added "under God" to the pledge. I didn't like it then and usually refrain from saying it even now. Its not that I don't believe in God......it is that its use in a nationalist pledge limits and in my view, diminishes the majesty and mystery of the loving creative force within the universe. My idea of god is not of a Nation god. Love promotes the universality of all peoples.
"In God there is no East or West,
In God no South or North;
But one great fellowship of love
Throughout the whole wide earth."
But I also know what happens when Christianity gets intertwined with the government: Christianity suffers.
As Roger Williams clearly observed back in 1644.
Roger Williams, btw, was a radical Puritan who founded the first Baptist church in the Americas. He also founded Rhode Island and was the first American Abolitionist.
And, to the point of your post, it was Roger Williams who coined the phrase "...wall of separation between Church and State..." in his treatise "The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution for the Sake of Conscience."
Williams' point was that when the Church gets into bed with the State, it becomes obliged to support what the King does to enhance his own wealth and power. There just aren't that many "Daniels" in real life; most clerics who enjoy the favor of government will be successfully seduced by it.
Williams founded Rhode Island specifically as the first colony to provide absolute religious freedom--and he even specified freedom for Muslims and atheists in his writings about it.
Rhode Island continued with Williams' philosophy, holding up ratification of the Constitution until after the Bill of Rights was written and ratified.
The Baptist Church also continued (for a good while) with his philosophy, which is why Jefferson cribbed the language of their founder to convince the Danbury Baptist Church that Federalism wouldn't invade their religious liberties.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Lol. First time I've thought of these words since 2003, when I was a senior in high school. Entire thing is pretty laughable, "under God" most notably of course. The sentiment of my fellow New Yorkers posting in this thread seems to be strongly anti-pledge...at the state level, we should do away with compulsory pledge recitations if nothing else. Such meaningless, idiotic words. We're so far removed from upholding the ideals mentioned at the very end that the lip service that K-12 kids are forced to pay couldn't seem much emptier. And why is anyone pledging allegiance to a flag, or piece of material of any kind? Pledge allegiance "to the republic for which it stands" all you want (although one would hope that said allegiance will not be of the "blind allegiance" variety), but to the flag itself? The entire thing is way too antiquated and embarrassing. Abolish it (obviously not going to happen, but I'm not going to end my mini-rant any other way).
Roger Williams, btw, was a radical Puritan who founded the first Baptist church in the Americas. He also founded Rhode Island and was the first American Abolitionist.
And, to the point of your post, it was Roger Williams who coined the phrase "...wall of separation between Church and State..." in his treatise "The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution for the Sake of Conscience."
Williams' point was that when the Church gets into bed with the State, it becomes obliged to support what the King does to enhance his own wealth and power. There just aren't that many "Daniels" in real life; most clerics who enjoy the favor of government will be successfully seduced by it.
Williams founded Rhode Island specifically as the first colony to provide absolute religious freedom--and he even specified freedom for Muslims and atheists in his writings about it.
Rhode Island continued with Williams' philosophy, holding up ratification of the Constitution until after the Bill of Rights was written and ratified.
The Baptist Church also continued (for a good while) with his philosophy, which is why Jefferson cribbed the language of their founder to convince the Danbury Baptist Church that Federalism wouldn't invade their religious liberties.
Yep. I think it's really ironic that the sect that shouts the loudest for the mixing of church and state was founded by a man who did his level best to keep them apart.
I think it's really ironic that the sect that shouts the loudest for the mixing of church and state
To be fair it wasn't until the rise of the Religious Reich under Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson that they really started to shout for the mixing of church and state. Prior to those two Evangelicals kept out of politics.
Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson if you did a who said this Hitler or a Christian Evangelical? People would say the Hitler sayings were the Christian Evangelical while identifying the Christian Evangelical statements as the Hitler statement.
At that time, it was part of the school day that everyone recited the Lord's Prayer.
The Jewish children simply stood out in the hall and came in late.
I started Kindergarten in 1945 and graduated from High School in 1958.
Every day started with the ritual of reciting the "Our Father" Prayer, reading from the Bible, reciting the flag pledge, and maybe singing a patriotic song like "My Country Tis of Thee", or the one called "America" that was popularized by a fat lady on TV.
We would say the prayer in unison using the "official" Protest version. Then the next kid in line would have to read the Bible passage. Even the Jewish kid and the Stutterer had to take their turn.
I remember when they added the God part to the pledge, but nobody I knew cared. Like the Bible, the prayers, and all the rest of the Political and Religious nonsense it was just more "official" crap to put up with, or to ignore.
I don't believe that "under God" belongs in the Pledge of Allegiance. . . especially in this day and age. Also, we need to remove "in God we trust" from our currency as well. . .
That said, opinions are like @ssholes: everybody's got one".
To be fair it wasn't until the rise of the Religious Reich under Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson that they really started to shout for the mixing of church and state. Prior to those two Evangelicals kept out of politics.
Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson if you did a who said this Hitler or a Christian Evangelical? People would say the Hitler sayings were the Christian Evangelical while identifying the Christian Evangelical statements as the Hitler statement.
How inane. Everyone knows that Hitler hated Christianity. In fact, plenty of Christians were massacred, too.
Good try, no cigar. Now put away those MSNBC flash cards. Please?
Being a Theist my objections to having "Under God" are probably different than the reasons an Atheist would have. I have several reasons.
1. The words give the impression the Flag is ordained by God
2. It turns the pledge into a prayer. Prayer is fine, but it should be of one's own free will and not seen as a state obligation
3. It devalues religion and Turns God into a secular ordinance instead of being our divine creator.
4. This reason Is more based upon personal feelings. I do not like the origins of the word. See HERE and HERE and HERE
To use the word God makes me feel I am paying tribute to the Goddess Indra which is something I do not desire to do.
5. We should not be secularizing our creator.
I think the daughter of author of the pledge objected to including "Under God" for reasons similar to mine. (My opinion, no proof)
Quote:
In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's daughter objected to this alteration. Today it reads:
I'm with you. I consider myself to be a proud American and pretty patriotic. But I've always felt like having little children stand up and recite this pledge in unison every.single.day. is a little creepy. Never mind the fact that they're professing something that they don't even really understand. But it just feels a bit cultish.
Maybe that's just me.
First time I ever encountered the idea of a daily national pledge (I'm from Europe) was in a documentary about Soviet schools. I refused to believe it was an American thing, when first told.
I am not religious, but I would think that six-year-olds being led in a rote repetition of a ritual with God's name would kinda-sorta fall under the "taking the Lord's name in vain", which seems a bit weird to me.
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