Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
All the homeowner knew was someone was in his garage....he then fired blindly into the garage not knowing who was there or what they were doing.
What he did is not any different than stringing up a shotgun booby trap with a tripwire in his garage.
You assume it was a trap. Maybe not.
Maybe you wouldn't defend your wife and child, but many others would. There would be no doubt in my mind "what the thief was doing". He wasn't there to play scrabble. So what would you do? Just wait until the thief attacked your family?
From the link:
"Kaarma feared for his life and for the safety of his wife and their 10-month-old son when a male intruder later identified as Dede entered the attached garage, and advanced toward the couple's kitchen, Ryan said, adding a security camera taped the intruder."
Maybe you wouldn't defend your wife and child, but many others would. There would be no doubt in my mind "what the thief was doing". He wasn't there to play scrabble. So what would you do? Just wait until the thief attacked your family?
Indeed. Regardless of whether the use of force was excessive, whether it was a trap, or whether he used bad judgment when shooting, that person had no right to be there and certainly had no right to steal another person's property, no matter where it was placed or if the garage door was open or not. An open garage door doesn't make one's private property public domain. I find the blaming of the victim here to be disturbingly similar to the argument that women who are raped deserve it because they wore provocative outfits or whatever; why don't these same people that say rape is wrong no matter the circumstance and one has the right to defend oneself using any means available apply the same logic to home invasions and burglary? Or do they believe that our personal property ends where our genitals do?
Much like the Zimmerman case, there isn't enough information presented to draw firm conclusions, but if the shooter reasonably believed that he was being burglarized I believe he had every right to shoot the intruder under those close-quarter pitch-black circumstances; after all, it's difficult to tell in darkness whether someone is armed or not, and one is under no moral obligation to assume great personal risk for the sake of those who are violating your property rights. If, however, he did have a reasonable basis for believing he was being burglarized and if he knew that the intruder was unarmed, then I think the shooting was not justified.
That ties into one of the basic precepts of stand your ground; under even the most expansive interpretation of the stand your ground principle (that isn't law anywhere but hypothetically...), if you do not have a reasonable basis for believing that your life or property is threatened and if you know your assailant is unarmed you don't have a right to kill the assailant. Determining these questions when their answers are in doubt is what the court system is supposed to do in these self-defense cases; if there is no reasonable basis and if one knows the intruder is unarmed, stand your ground is never "triggered", so to speak.
Although a criminal being killed isn't a bad thing, the man in question set a trap of sorts. Illegal.
He was dumb and fired blindly into the garage. It could have been an innocent woman trying to hide from an abusive spouse, a kid hiding from his buddies, just breaking curfew and having fun. The home owner had no idea what was going on.
The exchange student. Not innocent, not a nice guy, not deserving of sympathy, also not deserving of being shot. Darwin gets a double win. Shooter goes to Jail and german thug won't spread his genes.
"The investigation into the killing of Diren Dede of Hamburg should make clear that it is illegal to kill an unarmed juvenile just because he was trespassing, said Julia Reinhardt, spokeswoman for the German consulate in San Francisco.
Disinformation.
Stepping onto the property with any intent other than good is trespass.
The minute he set foot into the garage, that's house-breaking/B&E or however your State names it, and it is prima facie evidence of trespass. If it was between sunset and sunrise, then it is burglary.
So, tell us, katzpaw.....when your retirement funds dry up and you're being hammered by Real Inflation, and you're eating cat-food, since it is the only thing you can afford buy, will you commit a crime --- like, um,
"trespass" --- to go to prison in order to eat three meal a day, and go to the library without spending a dime, and watch cable/satellite?
As I've mentioned quite often, in the not-to-distant future, you're going to have to make a choice between feeding and housing and pampering criminals, and the rest of the people.
Indeed. Regardless of whether the use of force was excessive, whether it was a trap, or whether he used bad judgment when shooting, that person had no right to be there and certainly had no right to steal another person's property, no matter where it was placed or if the garage door was open or not. An open garage door doesn't make one's private property public domain. I find the blaming of the victim here to be disturbingly similar to the argument that women who are raped deserve it because they wore provocative outfits or whatever; why don't these same people that say rape is wrong no matter the circumstance and one has the right to defend oneself using any means available apply the same logic to home invasions and burglary? Or do they believe that our personal property ends where our genitals do?
Much like the Zimmerman case, there isn't enough information presented to draw firm conclusions, but if the shooter reasonably believed that he was being burglarized I believe he had every right to shoot the intruder under those close-quarter pitch-black circumstances; after all, it's difficult to tell in darkness whether someone is armed or not, and one is under no moral obligation to assume great personal risk for the sake of those who are violating your property rights. If, however, he did have a reasonable basis for believing he was being burglarized and if he knew that the intruder was unarmed, then I think the shooting was not justified.
That ties into one of the basic precepts of stand your ground; under even the most expansive interpretation of the stand your ground principle (that isn't law anywhere but hypothetically...), if you do not have a reasonable basis for believing that your life or property is threatened and if you know your assailant is unarmed you don't have a right to kill the assailant. Determining these questions when their answers are in doubt is what the court system is supposed to do in these self-defense cases; if there is no reasonable basis and if one knows the intruder is unarmed, stand your ground is never "triggered", so to speak.
I agree with most of your post, but being unarmed is irrelevant and frequently a temporary status since the burglar can easily grab a deadly weapon and become armed in an instant.
We should also start with questioning the actions of the student. Why isn't his dad asking "how did my son become a burglar?" Being a burglar is what started the entire tragedy.
So, tell us, katzpaw.....when your retirement funds dry up and you're being hammered by Real Inflation, and you're eating cat-food, since it is the only thing you can afford buy, will you commit a crime --- like, um,
"trespass" --- to go to prison in order to eat three meal a day, and go to the library without spending a dime, and watch cable/satellite?
You are making an assumption about which way I voted in the poll.
A Missoula Montana homeowner has been charged with deliberate homicide after shooting and killing an intruder, a German exchange student, in his garage. Many homes and garages in the neighborhood, including the howmeowner's, had been burgled in recent months. In response he set up a security system and when it buzzed one night he ran outside and shot into his darkened garage.
The allegations are that the homeowner had set a trap, leaving his garage door open at night, possibly with a purse as bait, and was waiting for someone to walk into it. The homeowner may also have been intoxicated or using drugs. A jar of pot was found in his house and the homeowner might have had marijuana stolen from his garage in the earlier burglary. I suspect he would not have been charged if he was a more 'upstanding' individual.
After he realized the intruder had been shot he called 9-1-1 and attempted life saving procedures.
"The investigation into the killing of Diren Dede of Hamburg should make clear that it is illegal to kill an unarmed juvenile just because he was trespassing, said Julia Reinhardt, spokeswoman for the German consulate in San Francisco. "We consider what happened completely out of proportion to the probable risk," Reinhardt said.
This another disturbing case. I mean look violence and murder happens especially in America, but the problem is other murders don't have a political party with powerful elected officials and a powerful lobbying group helping them to carry out their murderous plots.
These stand your ground laws and these carry a gun everywhere laws, helps a certain kind of gun nut to live out their sick fantasies all in the name of gun rights and freedom.
A Missoula Montana homeowner has been charged with deliberate homicide after shooting and killing an intruder, a German exchange student, in his garage. Many homes and garages in the neighborhood, including the howmeowner's, had been burgled in recent months. In response he set up a security system and when it buzzed one night he ran outside and shot into his darkened garage.
The allegations are that the homeowner had set a trap, leaving his garage door open at night, possibly with a purse as bait, and was waiting for someone to walk into it. The homeowner may also have been intoxicated or using drugs. A jar of pot was found in his house and the homeowner might have had marijuana stolen from his garage in the earlier burglary. I suspect he would not have been charged if he was a more 'upstanding' individual.
After he realized the intruder had been shot he called 9-1-1 and attempted life saving procedures.
"The investigation into the killing of Diren Dede of Hamburg should make clear that it is illegal to kill an unarmed juvenile just because he was trespassing, said Julia Reinhardt, spokeswoman for the German consulate in San Francisco. "We consider what happened completely out of proportion to the probable risk," Reinhardt said.
There is a lot more to this story that is developing. However what has presented thusfar certainly doesn't lend itself well to a self defense claim, nor anything in the castle doctrine claim.
There may be some premeditation in that the accused told others that he was going to set a trap for the "F*@ing punks" that were robbing his home and kill them.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
