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Bundy is easily dealt-with, because he is driven by his own greed, not principle. Cliven Bundy isn't really going to risk his own life for anything.
This is a separate question, and a far different scenario. It is a question of principle that I don't believe most people would be willing to say "Yes" to. But if the answer isn't a "Yes", then you must recognize that you cannot prevent secession, even by a single person, on even a single acre of land.
You can prevent secession. This is an interesting point you make, and one that already has precedent. People that declare secession, you know them as "sovereign individuals", can believe they are free of the federal government. Most end up in prison for tax evasion and the like
Sure you can. They can make speeches and declarations about how they've seceded all they want but as soon as they take any actions you can arrest them. If they refuse to pay taxes or otherwise break any laws within their new "independent nation" they can be prosecuted. No death is required. Just a taser and some handcuffs.
You are pretending it is some guy in a field. I am talking about something more like "Waco".
Imagine something like the Branch Davidians, but with people who aren't weirdo freaks. Who have enough food and water to last a couple years. A sound-proof safe-room. Huge quantities of guns and ammo. And who are dedicated and would never come out. Keep in mind, there are people who are so dedicated to a cause that they go on hunger strikes and die.
Ultimately, just like Waco, the government will be forced to break into a building, and just like Waco the people there won't allow it. At that point, you'll have to kill everyone inside.
The Waco situation was a bit different, because it was a religious cult with a weirdo leader, and child abuse and crap. I'm talking about some fine upstanding people, who are just tired of the way things are going, and are seceding on a principle.
In that situation, at some point, the only way to dislodge them would be to kill them.
So as the question asks, would you be willing to kill them? Yes or no?
You are pretending it is some guy in a field. I am talking about something more like "Waco".
Imagine something like the Branch Davidians, but with people who aren't weirdo freaks. Who have enough food and water to last a couple years. A sound-proof safe-room. Huge quantities of guns and ammo. And who are dedicated and would never come out. Keep in mind, there are people who are so dedicated to a cause that they go on hunger strikes and die.
Ultimately, just like Waco, the government will be forced to break into a building, and just like Waco the people there won't allow it. At that point, you'll have to kill everyone inside.
The Waco situation was a bit different, because it was a religious cult with a weirdo leader, and child abuse and crap. I'm talking about some fine upstanding people, who are just tired of the way things are going, and are seceding on a principle.
In that situation, at some point, the only way to dislodge them would be to kill them.
So as the question asks, would you be willing to kill them? Yes or no?
They would be dubbed a wacko religious cult. Also, if they have food and water for a couple of years, just cut the power and let them live in their own filth until they can't take it anymore.
They would be dubbed a wacko religious cult. Also, if they have food and water for a couple of years, just cut the power and let them live in their own filth until they can't take it anymore.
Who would dub them a wacko religious cult? Especially if they released information beforehand about what their intentions are. And of course, the media would be greatly interested in it if the government basically put the whole area on lockdown for two years.
You are assuming that they would eventually come out. This question is about the hypothetical scenario where people were so dedicated that they would never come out, and the government would be forced to make a decision. Either leave them alone, or kill them.
That scenario really could happen. Thus the question, would you support the government in killing people trying to secede if they refused to give themselves up?
My friend and I have been arguing quite a bit about Ukraine for the past few months. He didn't agree with Crimean secession then annexation by Russia. He says they should have been required to get the consent of the Ukrainian government since they were part of Ukraine. I said that I believed they should be allowed to secede because I thought it was kind of stupid to force a part of the country which was overwhelmingly Russian, and who overwhelmingly wanted to be part of Russia, to stay a part of Ukraine. In my view, it was nothing more than self-determination.
He remarked a little about how much of the southern United States is full of Mexicans. And that it seems silly to believe that if any part of a country which has a majority of a foreign population, that they should be allowed to suddenly break off and be their own country if the majority of them wanted to.
We talked a little about the legality of secession, and international law, and southern secession leading to the Civil War. And then we talked a lot about what the government would do today if Texas(or some other state) was to try to secede. He seems to believe that if Texas tried to secede that we would use force to keep them in the union.
I told him I didn't believe that we would. These days, the media is everywhere, and the sight of a government using force to even stop the illegal use of land by a rancher in Nevada is met with such resistance that the government is forced to back off. I just didn't see how anyone could imagine our government invading and killing thousands of "Texans" who wanted to secede. It just isn't going to happen.
So then he was trying to tease me the other day, because of all my secession talk. And he goes "Yeah man, I'm going to go buy 20 acres in the countryside and declare the land an independent nation."
At first I thought it sounded kind of ridiculous. I was just like "I guess you could try, but it probably isn't going to happen."
Then as I was sitting there I was thinking. Who exactly is going to stop him? And how?
In truth, if you wanted to stop someone or a group of people from seceding, and who were intent on seceding(especially a group who made the proper preparations). The only real way to prevent them, would be to kill them.
Thus the question then is, would you, the reader of this post, be willing to kill anyone who tried to secede from the United States? And why?
Yes.
If they won't give up without violence, by all means, shoot them.
I'm only going to take a life if my life is in immediate danger.
How the U.S. government deals with "sovereign individuals" is between those two entities.
So you are saying that if the government decided to kill anyone who tried to unilaterally secede from the United States that you would do nothing? If you don't want to do anything about it, do you at least have an opinion about it? Isn't your government supposed to represent you?
Who would dub them a wacko religious cult? Especially if they released information beforehand about what their intentions are. And of course, the media would be greatly interested in it if the government basically put the whole area on lockdown for two years.
You are assuming that they would eventually come out. This question is about the hypothetical scenario where people were so dedicated that they would never come out, and the government would be forced to make a decision. Either leave them alone, or kill them.
That scenario really could happen. Thus the question, would you support the government in killing people trying to secede if they refused to give themselves up?
Yeah, I would have no problem with that, once you secede, that land is no longer yours because you are no longer an American.
So you are saying that if the government decided to kill anyone who tried to unilaterally secede from the United States that you would do nothing? If you don't want to do anything about it, do you at least have an opinion about it? Isn't your government supposed to represent you?
The U.S. government has killed millions of people that I've had no beef with for various reasons that I don't agree with.
I just try to co-exist with the government. They're just "there" like any other organized entity (street gang, local rotary club, Bill's Hardware Store down the street) always acting in its best interest, not mine.
If they won't give up without violence, by all means, shoot them.
You do realize, at the point that they would not be giving themselves up without violence, they would see themselves as a foreign nation. And thus would see US military or police as foreign invaders. It would be the equivalent of the US military invading a house in Canada.
If you argue that it is rightfully US territory. What gave the US rights to that land to begin with? Didn't the US just take the land from someone else? In the case that we "purchased it", how did the seller of the land acquire that land? Did the United States even come into existence through "legal" means?
If you really start looking at the question more objectively. You'll realize that the entire concept of government, is really nothing more than "might makes right". Thus, government cannot even exist without violence and coercion. Thus if any government intends to perpetuate itself, it must be willing to kill anyone who opposes it. And if you want to live under a government, you must also be willing to kill anyone who would oppose its authority.
The truth is, everyone who posted in this thread answered "Yes." But only you seem to be courageous enough to actually say it.
Bravo sir, you must have really massive gonads.
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