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The problem with Israel is that it has fallen in love with the idea of Eretz Israel as Zion. Eretz Israel includes every square inch of of the land once called Palestine. There is no room and no place for Palestinians of which 1/4 are Christians . Christian Palestinians are treated just like any other Palestinian. It wouldn't be so bad if people (ALL PEOPLE) on the West Bank and Gaza could vote in elections for the Kinesset but that might mean that Hamas might be one of the largest parties in the Kinesset. Just imagine Likud cutting a deal with Hamas to form a stable government.
If De Klerk and the Nationalist Afrikanners could cut a deal with Mandela (Horns and all) and the ANC who knows what is possible.
Anything is possible when people come to their senses.
Only if you are Jewish. In practice and/or law Arab Israeli citizens don't have the same rights as Jews - most notably land can only be leased or sold to Jews.
And what happens when a Jew tries to buy a cute little corner lot in a Palestinian-occupied territory? Or in Baghdad? Or Tehran? Or Cairo?
Why does the left hate Israel? It is the only democratic country in the Middle East with an actual stable economy, freedom of the press, property rights, equal rights for women, freedom of religion, etc. Unlike most of the neighboring countries where one will be stoned to death for being gay or if a woman is not chaste, Israel was originally built from a socialist ideology and the kibbutz movement. Liberals should love that type of stuff.
It really makes no sense to me why the left vilifies Israel every time it sneezes yet doesn't seem to care about all the atrocities occurring elsewhere in the area.
The left does not hate Jewish people or Israel, the left hates the "Israel lobby." The Israel lobby gives our politicians huge amounts of campaign money, and this money gives Israel influence in American politics (like getting American tax payers to give Israel billions of dollars a year in foreign aid.)
Israel is a rich and economically advanced country, and they do not need financial aid from America. But still America gives Israel $3 billion dollars a year in financial and military aid.
Conservatives get very upset when America gives foreign aid to poor countries like Africa. But why do conservatives think its OK for America to give Israel billions of dollars every year, when Israel does not even need the money?
The left does not hate Jewish people or Israel, the left hates the "Israel lobby." The Israel lobby gives our politicians huge amounts of campaign money, and this money gives Israel influence in American politics (like getting American tax payers to give Israel billions of dollars a year in foreign aid.)
Israel is a rich and economically advanced country, and they do not need financial aid from America. But still America gives Israel $3 billion dollars a year in financial and military aid.
Conservatives get very upset when America gives foreign aid to poor countries like Africa. But why do conservatives think its OK for America to give Israel billions of dollars every year, when Israel does not even need the money?
Not true I am against all foreign aid I dont give a damn which nation it goes to, we have poor in our own nation..
The nation of Israel is nothing but a land grab. It has not much to do with religion. They are a good nation in stats. The problem though is that the creation of Israel leaves millions of Palestinians as citizenless people who can't live in their homeland and can't go anywhere else.
Why does the left hate Israel? It is the only democratic country in the Middle East with an actual stable economy, freedom of the press, property rights, equal rights for women, freedom of religion, etc. Unlike most of the neighboring countries where one will be stoned to death for being gay or if a woman is not chaste, Israel was originally built from a socialist ideology and the kibbutz movement. Liberals should love that type of stuff.
It really makes no sense to me why the left vilifies Israel every time it sneezes yet doesn't seem to care about all the atrocities occurring elsewhere in the area.
Because the right supports Israel. That's really the heart of it. Oh, they'll bring up all sorts of war crimes that Israel has been involved in. And it's true that Israel isn't exactly a land of saints. But, as you pointed out, the other side is guilty of even more atrocities than Israel is, and the left almost never speaks out about that. So all the terrible things that Israel has done that they bring out as the reasons why they oppose it are really just excuses. What it comes down to is that Israel is the single nation in that region that is a bastion of Western civilization and ideals, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The leftists supported the Viet Cong even as they tortured and murdered their way across the countryside of Vietnam. The leftists supported Che Guevara even as he is on record as attempting to acquire nuclear weapons with which he planned to destroy New York. The leftists supported the Arab Spring even when they started murdering Christians and suspending the constitution of Egypt. The leftists supported Hugo Chavez even when he outlawed freedom of speech and embezzled over a billion dollars from the country.
What it comes down is that the left's supposed concern with freedom and peace and all that is just propaganda. In each and every case the liberals support people, the people they support are the enemies of standard Western ideals of civilization.
They marched in the streets in the 80s against apartheid's treatment of blacks. But today how many of them are marching against the Muslim regimes in the Middle East and the way they treat women and homosexuals, people the left claims to support? None. Because the South African government was an industrialized Western style government, whereas the Islamist regimes are against the West.
1) There are some core differences in morality and sense of fairness between people on the left and on the right that underlay common differences of opinion. The big one is what matters more: intent or result. On the right, intent is more highly valued, on the left outcome is. This matters a lot when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. If you look at the thoughts and motivations of each side, what each would do if it had total power in the situation and was free from outside reprisals, how they go about deciding what to do, etc., the Israelis are clearly the good guys. If you look at the actions that occur given the power dynamics on the ground, the Palestinians are clearly being harmed much more and the Israelis have more ability to make things occur or not, so from that point of view the Palestinians are clearly the good guys. So your overall view of morality matters a lot and the kind of people that care more that everyone have equal opportunity are going to be more supportive of Israel whereas the kind of people that care more that everyone have equal outcome are going to be more supportive of the Palestinians because the same underlying moral viewpoints that generate those economic standpoints will shape view about the I/P conflict.
2) The average Israeli is whiter than the average Palestinian and a little under half of them come from Europe a few generations back. To a lot of people on the left globally this makes them associated with European imperialism and thus they are against them because of that.
3) You don't see this much day to day, but on the internet it's not entirely uncommon for people who are anti-semitic to pretend to criticize Israel from a leftist viewpoint to hide that, or just happen to be both leftist and anti-semitic. The reason is people use criticism of Israel as a more socially acceptable way and venue to express their bigoted viewpoints, and when called out on it because they do a bad job in hiding it start using leftist language to attempt to further disguise their actual motivations.
Thanks for taking the time to give a well thought out response.
With regard to your third point, I honestly don't want to believe its true in American politics. I know that Europe is definitely full of anti semitism and clearly Arab oil money and Muslim extremism definitely fuels it in other parts of the world, but it is just very hard for me to believe that is the case here in the states.
Last edited by Ibginnie; 06-08-2014 at 11:00 AM..
Reason: deleted quoted post and reply
Why does the left hate Israel? It is the only democratic country in the Middle East with an actual stable economy, freedom of the press, property rights, equal rights for women, freedom of religion, etc. Unlike most of the neighboring countries where one will be stoned to death for being gay or if a woman is not chaste, Israel was originally built from a socialist ideology and the kibbutz movement. Liberals should love that type of stuff.
It really makes no sense to me why the left vilifies Israel every time it sneezes yet doesn't seem to care about all the atrocities occurring elsewhere in the area.
Antisemitism for the most part, but they are afraid to call it that. Jewish people are generally educated, successful and independent, exactly what liberals fear most. If more people were like that...there would be no more liberalism.
1) There are some core differences in morality and sense of fairness between people on the left and on the right that underlay common differences of opinion. The big one is what matters more: intent or result. On the right, intent is more highly valued, on the left outcome is. This matters a lot when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. If you look at the thoughts and motivations of each side, what each would do if it had total power in the situation and was free from outside reprisals, how they go about deciding what to do, etc., the Israelis are clearly the good guys. If you look at the actions that occur given the power dynamics on the ground, the Palestinians are clearly being harmed much more and the Israelis have more ability to make things occur or not, so from that point of view the Palestinians are clearly the good guys. So your overall view of morality matters a lot and the kind of people that care more that everyone have equal opportunity are going to be more supportive of Israel whereas the kind of people that care more that everyone have equal outcome are going to be more supportive of the Palestinians because the same underlying moral viewpoints that generate those economic standpoints will shape view about the I/P conflict.
2) The average Israeli is whiter than the average Palestinian and a little under half of them come from Europe a few generations back. To a lot of people on the left globally this makes them associated with European imperialism and thus they are against them because of that.
3) You don't see this much day to day, but on the internet it's not entirely uncommon for people who are anti-semitic to pretend to criticize Israel from a leftist viewpoint to hide that, or just happen to be both leftist and anti-semitic. The reason is people use criticism of Israel as a more socially acceptable way and venue to express their bigoted viewpoints, and when called out on it because they do a bad job in hiding it start using leftist language to attempt to further disguise their actual motivations.
Just how do you figure that? It is the Palestinians that send people wrapped in Semtex onto buses loaded with innocent civilians to slaughter them, not Israelis. It is Palestinians that launch rockets into civilian neighborhoods. For the most part, it is Palestinians that abuse other Palestinians far worse than Israel ever did. It is Israel that provides food and medical treatment for very Palestinians that have attacked, hurt and killed Israeli civilians. So...now just how do you figure they are the good guys?
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