Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 07-02-2014, 05:41 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
6,081 posts, read 4,575,734 times
Reputation: 10552

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
Sure. It's their store. If it means less customers, we'll see if they stick to it.
The skeptical side of me thinks that these stances (not only with Hobby Lobby but with in other situations) are sometimes meant to get publicity and attract customers who share a certain ideology. Come to ___ because we represent "true American conservative family values" Or "we're just a little more compassionate, forward thinking and progressive over here, okay?"

It doesn't matter as much to me what the personal leadership of the company thinks as long as they just aren't using their ideology to try to manipulate me into being a customer. Just offer a good product at a reasonable price, treat your employees decently, give them training on how to properly deal with customers, don't throw good employees under the bus with layoffs (with little/no notice) that could have been avoided with a little more competence or a little less unfettered greed. Simply having a holier than thou attitude isn't going to make me think a company is that pious. It's going to actually raise a red flag and make me think they are trying to manipulate me.

Last edited by Jowel; 07-02-2014 at 05:52 PM..

 
Old 07-02-2014, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,933 posts, read 12,866,354 times
Reputation: 7399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myghost View Post
Just wondering if you support Target's right to provide a family friendly and safe environment, free of firearms?
Well, your premise is flawed, as it assumes that if it is free of firearms, or rather, if a paper sign is hung up exclaiming "no guns allowed" { which will not make it free of firearms } that will somehow make it a safer business. How will a paper sign prevent a criminal intent on doing harm from bringing a gun inside?

To answer your question though, yes, I support Target's private property rights to politely ask criminals not to bring their guns inside by hanging up a paper sign on the door, whether the criminals will oblige is another matter.

I also support the consumers right to make their spending decisions based on either their like or dislike of those policies. For me, a legal, trained, background checked concelaed carrier, I find such policies to be decidedly UNsafe, and will choose to shop somewhere that is not publicly against self defense.
Quote:
For the record, before the name calling starts, I'm not sure how I feel about either company's decision. (HL is hypocritical, but I'm not sure that I disagree with their rights, as business owners. Same with Target)
The Free Market should always be the ultimate judge and jury. Let people run their business however they like, and people will spend their money accordingly.
 
Old 07-02-2014, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,782 posts, read 17,316,678 times
Reputation: 7990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myghost View Post
Just wondering if you support Target's right to provide a family friendly and safe environment, free of firearms?

For the record, before the name calling starts, I'm not sure how I feel about either company's decision. (HL is hypocritical, but I'm not sure that I disagree with their rights, as business owners. Same with Target)

It would have been interesting to make this a poll. Most of the conservatives seem to support the right of Target to keep guns off of their property. But most liberals obviously do not support the right of Hobby Lobby to adhere to their religious beliefs. Costco has long had a similar policy to the new Target policy. No problem...I don't shop at Costco.

This is illustrative of the split between liberals and conservatives. The liberal advocates a top down world where the collective dictates to the individual. Conservatives tend to support a world where individuals make their choices, and live with the consequences whether good or bad.
 
Old 07-02-2014, 06:07 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,933 posts, read 12,866,354 times
Reputation: 7399
Of course, none of this discussion really matters.... as Target didn't ban guns in their stores, as desperate as the anti-gun complex is to fabricate that lie.

I read Target's statement, and if you had read it as well, you'd know what they really said. They said "we've always followed the lead of state and local laws concerning the carrying of guns, and will continue to do so."

Their statement was similar to all the chains that have recently released statements on this issue. Very few have actually set an official policy in to motion banning guns in their stores, and merely ask that customers leave guns at home to appease all sides of the issue.

With that said, since Target didn't ban guns, I'll continue to shop there, carrying my gun on me at all times. If anyone has a problem with that, then that is exactly what it is, their problem.
 
Old 07-02-2014, 06:26 PM
 
48,505 posts, read 96,659,793 times
Reputation: 18304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myghost View Post
Just wondering if you support Target's right to provide a family friendly and safe environment, free of firearms?

For the record, before the name calling starts, I'm not sure how I feel about either company's decision. (HL is hypocritical, but I'm not sure that I disagree with their rights, as business owners. Same with Target)
Hobby Lobby is a private business and can do what they like as others should be able.
 
Old 07-02-2014, 06:49 PM
 
3,570 posts, read 2,510,004 times
Reputation: 2290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cnynrat View Post
Yes.

I support Hobby Lobby's right to be exempt from a law that violates their religious values. We have an established right to follow the religion of our choice. We do not have an established right to free birth control. If we forced Hobby Lobby to pay for birth control that violates their religious beliefs we are infringing on their freedom of religion. On the other hand, by allowing Hobby Lobby to be exempt from that law we are not violating any rights of their employees. Ultimately, employees are free to seek employment elsewhere if this issue is that important to them.

The Target case is a little more difficult, because there are two rights involved. We have an established right to "keep and bear arms." We also have property rights that generally allow property owners to determine who is allowed on their property, and under what conditions that access is allowed. Since gun carrying shoppers have other shopping alternatives besides Target, they are still free to exercise their 2nd amendment rights, just not at Target. So, based on that I'm OK with Target's position as well.

Dave
There is a pretty important difference between the two: Target is saying don't bring a gun into our stores--people do not have a right to carry a weapon on the private property of someone else without permission. Hobby Lobby is saying give us an exemption from the group health requirements--its employees have a right to group health coverage that covers preventive care, including contraceptives. The case does not find that ACA infringes Hobby Lobby's freedom of religion (its 1st Amendment rights). Instead, it finds that another statute gives Hobby Lobby rights that go beyond the 1st Amendment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
Hobby Lobby is a private business and can do what they like as others should be able.
But they have to follow the law--including, until the Court's decision, the Affordable Care Act.
 
Old 07-02-2014, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Del Rio, TN
39,809 posts, read 26,394,291 times
Reputation: 25704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myghost View Post
Just wondering if you support Target's right to provide a family friendly and safe environment, free of firearms?

For the record, before the name calling starts, I'm not sure how I feel about either company's decision. (HL is hypocritical, but I'm not sure that I disagree with their rights, as business owners. Same with Target)
Was Target ever required to buy firearms for their employees? I guess I missed the memo.

Having said that, their business, their rules. Don't like it, don't shop or work there. Out of curiosity, I understand that Hobby Lobby no longer has to pay for their employee's abortions. Does Target still pay for their employees abortions as part of ACA? If so...I wonder if that will cause some people to shop elsewhere.
 
Old 07-02-2014, 07:23 PM
 
Location: North Idaho
2,394 posts, read 3,000,402 times
Reputation: 2934
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
There is a pretty important difference between the two: Target is saying don't bring a gun into our stores--people do not have a right to carry a weapon on the private property of someone else without permission.
This is not true: Assuming I am in compliance with state law, I do not need affirmative permission to carry on private property. However, a private property owner can decide to deny permission. There is a subtle but important difference.

Nevertheless, if you go back and read my original comment I clearly stated that there are two rights here that are potentially in conflict: the right to bear arms, and the right of a property owner to control the conditions under which others are allowed on their property. On balance I agree that the right of the property owner wins out in this instance, mainly because the gun carrying shopper has other alternatives.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Hobby Lobby is saying give us an exemption from the group health requirements--its employees have a right to group health coverage that covers preventive care, including contraceptives.
No, there is no such right to health care coverage in this country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
The case does not find that ACA infringes Hobby Lobby's freedom of religion (its 1st Amendment rights). Instead, it finds that another statute gives Hobby Lobby rights that go beyond the 1st Amendment.
I think you are trying to split a hair that is meaningless. The RFRA is in furtherance of our 1st amendment rights.

Regardless, I argue my point from the perspective of what I believe, which is that we do have a fundamental right to practice the religion of our choice in this country. Contrary to what the left would like to believe, there is no fundamental right to free healthcare in this country. So in considering the Hobby Lobby question I come down on the side that Hobby Lobby's 1st amendment rights would be infringed if they were forced to do something contrary to their religious beliefs, yet there is no infringement of anyone's rights if they are not provided free health care by their employer.

Dave
 
Old 07-02-2014, 08:31 PM
 
Location: NJ
18,665 posts, read 19,929,612 times
Reputation: 7314
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post

To answer your question though, yes, I support Target's private property rights to politely ask criminals not to bring their guns inside by hanging up a paper sign on the door, whether the criminals will oblige is another matter.

.
I support Targets right to refuse to allow anyone in who has a firearm with them, and to evict any who disobey Target's right to dictate terms in their stores, as well as to copy identification and publish names if they wish in all their stores who have violated said policy.
 
Old 07-02-2014, 08:39 PM
 
3,216 posts, read 2,225,737 times
Reputation: 1224
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
It would have been interesting to make this a poll. Most of the conservatives seem to support the right of Target to keep guns off of their property. But most liberals obviously do not support the right of Hobby Lobby to adhere to their religious beliefs. Costco has long had a similar policy to the new Target policy. No problem...I don't shop at Costco.

This is illustrative of the split between liberals and conservatives. The liberal advocates a top down world where the collective dictates to the individual. Conservatives tend to support a world where individuals make their choices, and live with the consequences whether good or bad.
That pretty much sums it up.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top