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Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,389,283 times
Reputation: 40736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
Pretending that wishful thinking will protect us is a childish strategy.
And pretending that invading/occupying a nation that did not attack us, was not an imminent threat, while the real enemy was not the center focus will protect us is somehow above the level of childish strategy?
It's llike "Mommy! Mommy! Somebody knocked me down in the playground and I didn't know who so I got up and just hit the first one I saw that I don't like".
And pretending that invading/occupying a nation that did not attack us, was not an imminent threat, while the real enemy was not the center focus will protect us is somehow above the level of childish strategy?
It's llike "Mommy! Mommy! Somebody knocked me down in the playground and I didn't know who so I got up and just hit the first one I saw that I don't like".
Still waiting for somebody to stand up and offer a rebuttal to the summarization of sixteen of our own intelligence services that our ill conceived invasion has increased radical jihadist terrorism and the direct threat level to the United States of America from global terrorism.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,389,283 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf
I admit that America makes mistakes, and I never called anyone an "America hater."
I never said you did, I gave you credit for the new slant of "self-loathing" rather than the usual uptight-right response of "America-hater" or "Bush-hater" whenever some expresses a point of view they don't happen to share.
Still waiting for somebody to stand up and offer a rebuttal to the summarization of sixteen of our own intelligence services that our ill conceived invasion has increased radical jihadist terrorism and the direct threat level to the United States of America from global terrorism.
Lots of chirping crickets.
That may be true; I don't know. I'm not sure we've ever had a good idea as to the number of terrorists there are. One thing I do know is that we are enjoying the longest period without an attack on US soil that we've had in quite some time.
Still waiting for somebody to stand up and offer a rebuttal to the summarization of sixteen of our own intelligence services that our ill conceived invasion has increased radical jihadist terrorism and the direct threat level to the United States of America from global terrorism.
Lots of chirping crickets.
I'm not trying to ignore you---I simply can't "rebut" what you say. However, I still say that I have no confidence that ANYTHING we do---as long as we're "Us"---is NOT going to infuriate the jihadists. That's always been my point. WE're hated for having gone in, and when we leave, we'll be hated for leaving----for leaving too soon, or for leaving too late.
THe problem is PARTIALLY what we "do"--and our singularly abrasive Commander-in-Chief. Certainly this has added fuel to the fire. If the "Chief" were to walk off the job tomorrow, however, we'd STILL be hated. Hate is a very real and very cherished way of looking at the 'world at large' among some folks, and the bigger the 'foreigner', naturally, the more intense the hatred....and if the "good" folks in these groups can not, --or will not, --or are AFRAID to, control the "bad" folks in their midst, then the net effect is the same. We can either submit and "appease", or we can attempt to isolate ourselves, or we can continue to engage in various wars. But we CAN'T make people 'like' us.
"As in World War II, when Stalin was our ally? I don't ignore the need to sometimes use despicable monsters to fight bigger ones. How would you address that issue?"
More like when Saddam was our ally, when Pinochet was our ally, when the Saudis are still our "ally," the Contras, the Shah, etc. We've supported many "despicable monsters" in the name of "fighting bigger ones" but much of the time it has more to do with economics, power, and influence than avoiding invasions, or nuclear war, or whatever other scenarios the war salesmen can dream up. Treating the citizens of other countries as pawns in a global chess game is just as evil when the US does it as it was when the USSR did it.
"As in World War II, when Stalin was our ally? I don't ignore the need to sometimes use despicable monsters to fight bigger ones. How would you address that issue?"
More like when Saddam was our ally, when Pinochet was our ally, when the Saudis are still our "ally," the Contras, the Shah, etc. We've supported many "despicable monsters" in the name of "fighting bigger ones" but much of the time it has more to do with economics, power, and influence than avoiding invasions, or nuclear war, or whatever other scenarios the war salesmen can dream up. Treating the citizens of other countries as pawns in a global chess game is just as evil when the US does it as it was when the USSR did it.
Your post is partially correct, but I disagree with your conclusion. I don't think we have any choice in the matter of 'playing the game'. We're the biggest team in town, and anonymity is not an option for us. Like it or not, we're 'in the game'. If this is described as 'using' others, that may be one way to look at it. But we're obligated to look out for ourselves. All we can really do is to play as honorably as possible, to refrain from gratuitous aggression, and to use kindness and compassion toward any 'enemies', once they've been contained. This, I think, we've done a far better job at than have the Soviets. Ugly as things can be, and 'lonely' as it can be at the top, I think we've run far more of a 'class operation' than most. I don't think it's fair to equate us with the Russians, OR with Saddam. Compare us, if you must, but don't say we're 'just like them'....
As far as domestic human rights go, of course our government's superior to the Soviets and Saddam (although the USSR used to be able to wave segregation/Jim Crow in our face and in the faces of its subjects), and it always has been. In regards to foreign policy, though, our history (like that of the USSR and other "evil" countries) is tainted with many decades of semi-imperialism (as well as actual imperialism back when that was in vogue) and episodes of the sacrifice of various foreign peoples to "the national interest." Whether we're "just as bad" as the USSR in that category is a murky comparison and probably not one that I should have tried to make.
I'm not trying to ignore you---I simply can't "rebut" what you say. However, I still say that I have no confidence that ANYTHING we do---as long as we're "Us"---is NOT going to infuriate the jihadists. That's always been my point. WE're hated for having gone in, and when we leave, we'll be hated for leaving----for leaving too soon, or for leaving too late.
THe problem is PARTIALLY what we "do"--and our singularly abrasive Commander-in-Chief. Certainly this has added fuel to the fire. If the "Chief" were to walk off the job tomorrow, however, we'd STILL be hated. Hate is a very real and very cherished way of looking at the 'world at large' among some folks, and the bigger the 'foreigner', naturally, the more intense the hatred....and if the "good" folks in these groups can not, --or will not, --or are AFRAID to, control the "bad" folks in their midst, then the net effect is the same. We can either submit and "appease", or we can attempt to isolate ourselves, or we can continue to engage in various wars. But we CAN'T make people 'like' us.
I think the hate has to do with more pragmatic reasons such as our long term military funding of Israel and tendencies to promote human rights in our words while our government shows something else with its actions overseas. Our recent invasion has certainly added fuel to the fire, per these intelligence reports.
There may be some radicals that will always hate, but if we can try to get the general populations back on our side that would be a good thing. Starting by bringing the occupation forces back home. And why lose more lives for those that will hate us...no matter what?
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