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For anyone who might like an easily read, yet still sensible, list of the reasons for the fall of Rome and make a comparison based on that, here you go: 8 Reasons Why Rome Fell
In short,
1. Invasions by Barbarian tribes
2. Economic troubles and overreliance on slave labor
3. The rise of the Eastern Empire
4. Overexpansion and military overspending
5. Government corruption and political instability
6. The arrival of the Huns and the migration of the Barbarian tribes
7. Christianity and the loss of traditional (Roman) values
8. Weakening of the Roman legions
The whole "born gay" thing is a farce used for advancing a political agenda. There is not a single drop of proof for it and even the Psychiatry Community admits that they were forced to change their stance due to pressure from gay lobbyist groups. Now I don't care who someone sleeps with, it's not my business, and I never want any harm to come to anyone, I have a live and let live attitude. But they are trying to change the culture, make it seem "normal", and as in the case of Rome the results are disastrous! Our pop culture wants people to celebrate it and the sheep eat it up.
However I find it interesting that this is the only part of my post you outlined. I am not here to discuss that particular issue, there are several other parts that are also dangerous to our society that you didn't address. Leads me to think that the pro-gay voters such as yourself are all low-information one issue voters. Which is dangerous to our Democracy.
Ironic that with this tripe you call accepted science a "farce".
Can you post some links from a non-religious based scientific organization that doesn't believe gays (like myself) were born gay. I was. Every gay person I know claims to be born gay. But you know better?
Can you post some additional links from respected historians from Christanity saving Rome from "the gay"?
You seem to accept as fact what you want believe and challenge what doesn't fit your (warped) world view despite the science behind it.
Obviously the History Channel will have similar things because it history is the same, but they left out a lot of other content that I mentioned. Probably because they were afraid of offending somebody. Such as their bit about Christianity hurting Rome, the traditional Roman values were barbaric, Christianity brought them morality. It actually improved their society until they gave it up.
You think that what you wrote and what is listed by the History Channel are essentially the same thing? You need to read that list again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West Coast Republican
I feel that my list is far more in depth and paints an overall better picture.
Meaning it paints a better picture of the propaganda you are interested in forwarding. Yes, I agree to this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West Coast Republican
Besides anyone can learn this about this themselves if they simply study the fall of Rome and all other major civilizations.
1) makes statement about proof but offers none... check
2) removes logic and makes claimed like 'all roman citizens were gay/bi"... check
3) rampant hyperbole... check
Literally, how can an entire population be gay or bi? Just how? That doesn't even makes sense. Population would plummet. Fast. Even if the bi people were still having children, lets say the gay/bi ration was 50/50 (since making things up is apparently encouraged here), that still leaves at least half the population having no children at all. This isn't logically possible and simply does not add up.
And was homosexuality encouraged in Rome? Do you have evidence of this? Some kind of document? Just... something other that speculation?
There really isn't solid evidence on how homosexuality comes about. I have no idea if people are born that way. I also don't think it's relevant. It's clearly not a choice, and since it's not, how can we use that against them. That's the same thing as discrimination against black people. Something that they didn't consciously choose is being used against them. I won't argue that social conditioning likely plays a factor in some way to homosexuality, but it's probably way more complicated that you'd make it out to be. In fact I'm actually certain it is given your insanely simplified explanation of the fall of Roman democracy.
Wikipedia is not a good source, I admit, but it's a quick place to start for someone like you. The entire Roman culture was gay/bi, they all engaged in it. It was the cultural norm. Same for Greece. That changed when the Romans adopted Christianity, than they changed back to their old ways when they abandoned it. This is a historical fact and is not debatable.
But I am here not to discuss homosexuality. That's a dumb topic that is overplayed, there's a whole list of other issues that I mentioned but the pro-gays get caught up that one thing. Tunnel vision is a dangerous thing. Furthermore I provided evidence to back up my argument and you don't want to listen to it, which I expect because people don't actually care about the truth, they just want to believe what makes them happy. And if someone shows them the truth they get defensive and attack them, as you did.
I think there are a couple of interesting points here and some that seem a bit questionable. I decided to address each point.
The "rise of corrupt government leaders" is nothing new in the US. Corruption was pretty bad in the late 1800s and early 1900s. I think a bigger problem with our goverment now is the lack of compromise. Anything one party likes the other attacks. There is little middle ground. Also, Rome was pretty famous for its corruption since before Ceasars time.
"The collapse of markets and the accumilation of debt" sounds good and I am all for reducing the debt. I am tired of our government just throwing money they end up having to borrow at their pet projects. However, I think we should be looking at the US national debt as a percentage of GNP. I would like to see what that ratio is now, vs 20 years ago, 40 years ago and 60 years ago.
The "lack of borders" does not seem to apply. Rome had a real problem with borders that were overextended as a result of military campaigns. The US does has not added any new territory since Alaska and Hawaii.
The "morals and sophisticated culture" stuff in the US I will leave for others to argue about but I believe Rome did not suddenly have problems with this at the end of their empire. I would argue that the Roman acceptance of slavery and the cruelty of the gladatorial games was pervasive in its society from a very early point in their history. That seems to discredit the arguement about the Roman side of this point.
"Stretching its military resources" is one I can easily agree with. Rome and the US seem to share this problem.
"Abortion" is one of the most divisive issues in America today (see the point below about silencing the voice of the people). It has been argued in public opinion, the courts and is raised with every Supreme Court nominee. All of that discussion is good. However, I take issue with statements like ".. all in the false name of women's rights ..". Also, it really does not seem to be contributing to the decline of American society.
"Silencing the voice of the people" in the US today is very weak. Our society has more ways to express their voices today than ever before, as evidenced by the internet and this forum. For example, the comment about attacks vs people who oppose Obama sure has not slowed many people down. Also, there are a whole lot of people who object to higher taxes despite what some might say.
"Massive wealth distribution" seems more about the destruction of the "middle class". Like my comment about wanting to see the national debt numbers (as a percentage of GNP), this needs to be presented in terms of some relative numbers.
"The abandonment of Christianity" is biased. There are good people who are solid citizens who are agnostic, who are Muslim, or practice any other religion.
It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Roman culture first practiced homosexuality and encouraged it, all the Roman citizens were gay/bi sexual. It was their culture. Then when they became Christians the culture changed drastically, and homosexuality was no where to be found. Then later before the fall of Rome they abandoned Christianity and went back to their pagan ways and homosexuality sprung up again. Every time the culture changed so did their sexuality. It's cultural, hence why straight men who go to prison often become gay, it's the environment and upbringing that they're in. There are some cultures that don't even have it because it doesn't exist in their culture, they don't even have a concept or a word to describe it.
The whole "born gay" thing is a farce used for advancing a political agenda. There is not a single drop of proof for it and even the Psychiatry Community admits that they were forced to change their stance due to pressure from gay lobbyist groups. Now I don't care who someone sleeps with, it's not my business, and I never want any harm to come to anyone, I have a live and let live attitude. But they are trying to change the culture, make it seem "normal", and as in the case of Rome the results are disastrous! Our pop culture wants people to celebrate it and the sheep eat it up.
However I find it interesting that this is the only part of my post you outlined. I am not here to discuss that particular issue, there are several other parts that are also dangerous to our society that you didn't address. Leads me to think that the pro-gay voters such as yourself are all low-information one issue voters. Which is dangerous to our Democracy.
Men in prison don't 'become gay', as you presume.
It's the 'any old port in a storm' adage.
1-Much of it was similar, aside from a few things that they interpreted history differently.
History is interpretation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West Coast Republican
2-There is no propaganda in my post. It is all historical fact. I advise that you take a basic history course on the rise and fall of Rome, you definitely need it.
You just can't see it because you are so far gone. What could have been an interesting thread starter was instead ruined by your need to interpret certain historical facts through the lens of your political and religious prejudice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by West Coast Republican
3-All the evidence shows that I'm right because it's all the same.
It's not a single thing, it's a combination of these things that caused the collapse.
There is a difference between calling ourselves a Christian nation and actually behaving like a Christian nation. We used to be but not now, today we are afraid to speak out and stand up for our faith, and there a lot of Christian hypocrites out there. One of the hypocritical groups are the "Cultural Christians" who don't really have a relationship with God, they're just a Christian because they think everyone else is and they do it to fit in, often twisting scripture to support wrong doings. The other group are the legalistic "Judgemental Christians" who are authoritive and look down their noses at everyone not like them. They are not living for Christ who wants us to love all people and care for them and teaches that no man is better. We are saved by Grace, but remember that faith without works is dead.
Snake-handlers think YOU'RE not a real Christian.
Who the hell are you to say who is a real Christian or not?
Men in prison don't 'become gay', as you presume.
It's the 'any old port in a storm' adage.
Not true. While I'm sure that might have something to do with it, there are plenty of cases where men who were straight outside of prison form same sex romances with men in prison. Many of them even become transgendered and start acting like women.
It's environmental.
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