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Sexual orientation and sexual practices really do differ in non-human and human primates.
Experimentation is common. Opportunity abounds, but more often among non-human primates, we often see proximity and need to govern sexual practices. The absence of a pro-creating partner does not eradicate the sexual urge. I postulate that my observations with monkeys, our non-human friends, is identical to those in humans, but less observed but not less common.
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Originally Posted by silas777
Thats a very conveniant argument, I find it interesting how, if you were hetero and then go homo you have come to terms with who you really are but if you were homo and go hetero you are denying your true "orentation". Here's a question is driving a subaru part of the orentation or is that a choice.
Sexual orientation and sexual practices really do differ in non-human and human primates.
Experimentation is common. Opportunity abounds, but more often among non-human primates, we often see proximity and need to govern sexual practices. The absence of a pro-creating partner does not eradicate the sexual urge. I postulate that my observations with monkeys, our non-human friends, is identical to those in humans, but less observed but not less common.
You will forgive me OTR, if I take a pass on the comparison of humans sexual behavior and non humans, for too many reasons to discuss on this thread. I will just say that I have been surrounded by many different type of animals, pets to livestock all of my life, and have witnessed some very strange and disgusting behavior from our "nonhuman friends", for the life of me cannot figure out why the homosexual community, somehow thinks that comparison helps their cause! I for one consider myself better than an animal, and dont think the position of (hey the animals do it so it must be normal) really is one I would be claiming!
I can see where you are coming from, Silas777--I used it because it struck me as a good comparison--human, non-human, family of primates.
And I'd say one of several reasons folks do make this or other comparisons is instinct. I believe the sexual urge is normal. We treat it differently than we treat other instincts, but fundamentally, it has always struck me as strange that we differentiated between it, sex, and other normative bodily functions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silas777
You will forgive me OTR, if I take a pass on the comparison of humans sexual behavior and non humans, for too many reasons to discuss on this thread. I will just say that I have been surrounded by many different type of animals, pets to livestock all of my life, and have witnessed some very strange and disgusting behavior from our "nonhuman friends", for the life of me cannot figure out why the homosexual community, somehow thinks that comparison helps their cause! I for one consider myself better than an animal, and dont think the position of (hey the animals do it so it must be normal) really is one I would be claiming!
I can see where you are coming from, Silas777--I used it because it struck me as a good comparison--human, non-human, family of primates.
And I'd say one of several reasons folks do make this or other comparisons is instinct. I believe the sexual urge is normal. We treat it differently than we treat other instincts, but fundamentally, it has always struck me as strange that we differentiated between it, sex, and other normative bodily functions.
I think we may differentiate between it and other " 'normative' (normal may be a more appropriate term here...?) bodily functions" because of the centrality of sex to human emotional bonding and the central role it plays in genealogical determination.
Quite speculative, but too much so to go into on this thread and throw us off the subject.
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Originally Posted by Yeledaf
I think we may differentiate between it and other " 'normative' (normal may be a more appropriate term here...?) bodily functions" because of the centrality of sex to human emotional bonding and the central role it plays in genealogical determination.
I like chocolate. Ever since I was little I was "attracted" to chocolate. Would you consider me "hard-wired" to seek out chocolate?
Hard wired? That's debatable. Have you made a CHOICE to like chocolate? Nope.
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Originally Posted by apunky1
Every time I want a piece I exercise a choice whether to indulge or not. Or, using your analaogy; I am "oriented" to chocolate, but the act of eating chocolate is my choice.
Basically, yes.
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Originally Posted by spunky1
And as far as your stating my co-worker isn't a lesbian you are playing semantics. She made a choice to become a lesbian. She is fully engaged in this life style. She is in fact the very definition of a lesbian:
Of or relating to females who experience a sexual attraction toward and responsiveness to other females; a homosexual female
I'm not playing semantics. I'm giving it to you straight (pardon the expression). You are AGAIN confusing, "being engaged in the "lifestyle" or "acts" of lesbianism, with BEING a lesbian.
Your friend is not a lesbian if she "chose" to "become" a Lesbian. It can't happen. You CANNOT "train" yourself to have sexual feelings towards something you don't naturally feel attraction to. Try as I might I will NEVER be able to "train" or "choose" to be attracted to 450 pound women (or men!).
Either your friend was always bisexual or at least had a proclivity towards bisexualism, or she's still a straight woman in a lesbian relationship.
Countless hookers and street hustling boys are "straight" but have sex with men because, let's face it, men pay for sex a lot more than women do. It doesn't mean those street hustling boys are gay.
Let me see if I can use an example that you might understand:
I can go to church and pray to Jesus, but if deep down inside, I don't believe in Jesus, would you call me a Christian?
Thats a very conveniant argument, I find it interesting how, if you were hetero and then go homo you have come to terms with who you really are but if you were homo and go hetero you are denying your true "orentation". Here's a question is driving a subaru part of the orentation or is that a choice.
I don't believe those people were truly homosexual to begin with. They may have been bisexual. At any rate, in many cases, there's "gay recidivism," and if you're battling against homosexual feelings your entire life while "living" as a heterosexual, even in a heterosexual relationship, you're STILL a gay or bi man and you're simply not choosing to not engage in gay acts.
UNTIL you extinguish FEELINGS of attractions for the same sex, you cannot say you're "ex-gay." Again, let's learn to "de-couple" "orientation" with "sexual acts."
It's why gay priests can be "gay priests" without ever having sex with a man.
The American Psychological Association, for instance, declared in 2006: “There is simply no sufficiently scientifically sound evidence that sexual orientation can be changed. Our further concern is that the positions espoused by NARTH [the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality] and Focus on the Family create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.”
Hard wired? That's debatable. Have you made a CHOICE to like chocolate? Nope.
Try as I might I will NEVER be able to "train" or "choose" to be attracted to 450 pound women (or men!).
Let me see if I can use an example that you might understand:
I can go to church and pray to Jesus, but if deep down inside, I don't believe in Jesus, would you call me a Christian?
To answer your question. . . I am "hard-wired" to seek out chocolate but it is my choice to indulge or not.
Me neither to the 450 pounder-I choose not to go there!
And no, you would not be a Christian if you didn't believe in Jesus.
And as far as my former co-worker. . . why do you insist she isn't a lesbian, she considers herself one, as does her girlfriend, and unfortunately her family does too.
Thats a very conveniant argument, I find it interesting how, if you were hetero and then go homo you have come to terms with who you really are but if you were homo and go hetero you are denying your true "orentation". Here's a question is driving a subaru part of the orentation or is that a choice.
you didn't follow what was being said, it isn't conveniant in the manner in which you state. The fact is there ARE straight people who choose to engage in homosexual acts.. they are not coming to terms with anything, they are going against their nature. I am not one to judge what others do, that is god's job. But most who engage in homosexual behavior do so because they are acting in their nature. Society has put pressures on people who naturally are homosexual to enter into hetero relationships. These people are NOT straight never where, never will be. They may attribute whatever choices they are making to a many number of things. But understand that how things are... aren't necessarily what they seem on the outside. Society has forced many to become a camilion as to not attract negative attention. That is why we must stop hating so much and preaching what is not our place to preach, so that the truth can come to light and proper discussion of the truth can take place.
To answer your question. . . I am "hard-wired" to seek out chocolate but it is my choice to indulge or not.
Me neither to the 450 pounder-I choose not to go there!
And no, you would not be a Christian if you didn't believe in Jesus.
And as far as my former co-worker. . . why do you insist she isn't a lesbian, she considers herself one, as does her girlfriend, and unfortunately her family does too.
Why do you get to pick and choose who qualifies?
Your co-worker's story is not complete and she is not offering all that is in her mind. I know many gay and lesbian people that before they come out seem very attracted to the opposite sex, its an act, whether it is or isn't in this woman's case, I would be suspect but I would like to let you know that if in fact it happened like you said and you have all the information, her case is an EXTREME minority of cases.
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