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Old 12-25-2007, 07:35 PM
 
2,971 posts, read 2,246,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
I think that you should add liberals to your senario of extremisms.
I agree. Absolutely.
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Old 12-25-2007, 07:45 PM
 
Location: America
6,993 posts, read 17,313,667 times
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TnHillTooper

I am Muslim, my family is from Africa, and I assure you that Muslims have never had some reverence or desire to be like or immolate America (not sure if that is what you meant, if I misunderstood you then I apologize), and it has always been that way. The reverence you speak of is actually a willingness on the part of Muslim nations to do business with America, because their hands were not dirty at the time (unlike some European nations). Ikhwan Al Muslimeen (muslim brotherhood), and other movements in modern times are all results of repressive societies backed by western governments. Basically what I am saying, they are natural occurrences in repressive societies (for European examples look at the IRA or Basq movements) and a inherent desire by the people to live as they would choose. As opposed to the present situation they are now under, where they have puppet governments ruling over them (these govt. have been installed and/or backed by western governments). Again this goes back to colonialism or neocolonialism as it is practiced today. As for Al Qaeda, they are mostly from saudi and egypt (the leaders). As for their motivations, in the case of Saudi Arabia you have a monarchy installed by brits and now backed by America. This monarchy is repressive and has spread tyranny and corruption on the people. As a result, some of these people have become radicalized. Its the same all over the world really, if people are not able to express themselves in a manner of their choosing they generally revolt in some way or form, again neocolonialism.

I think if our government would stop meddling in others affairs, and focus on ours we would be much, much safer. Again the Muslim world doesn't care about America's "freedoms" (such a silly notion to begin with) nor do they care about how we live here in the states. They want the right to live their lives and have foreign entities STOP meddling with how they live. But, as long as there is oil dependency in this world I don't think that is going to change. Not until the oil runs out that is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan61 View Post
I guess the thing I find disturbing about the Documentary is that Kotb's name is pronounced koo-tub but the ABC corespondent Hoda Kotb pronouces it cot-bee. Most of the rest seems to be alot of speculation and half baked theories.

And you're the one that sounds paranoid
I would have to see his name in Arabic to know which pronunciation is right. Kotb is pronounce Koot-Ba, Kootub is different. Kutb in arabi (should be spelled Qutb actually) means pole where as Kutub can mean a book or writing (something along those lines). I would actually have to see his name in Arabic to know which is right.
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Old 12-25-2007, 07:47 PM
 
2,260 posts, read 3,871,633 times
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No, Liberals and their vision of America are the heros in this Doc. It is the Christian Conservatives and Islamist suicide bombers (who are basically the same according to the piece) reactions to the pure utopian liberal political philosphies of the greatest generation that caused 911

Last edited by bryan61; 12-25-2007 at 08:01 PM..
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Old 12-25-2007, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,408 posts, read 7,776,002 times
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WildStyle: Basically what I am saying, they are natural occurrences in repressive societies (for European examples look at the IRA or Basq movements) and a inherent desire by the people to live as they would choose. As opposed to the present situation they are now under, where they have puppet governments ruling over them (these govt. have been installed and/or backed by western governments). Again this goes back to colonialism or neocolonialism as it is practiced today. As for Al Qaeda, they are mostly from saudi and egypt (the leaders). As for their motivations, in the case of Saudi Arabia you have a monarchy installed by brits and now backed by America. This monarchy is repressive and has spread tyranny and corruption on the people. As a result, some of these people have become radicalized. Its the same all over the world really, if people are not able to express themselves in a manner of their choosing they generally revolt in some way or form, again neocolonialism.

I think if our government would stop meddling in others affairs, and focus on ours we would be much, much safer. Again the Muslim world doesn't care about America's "freedoms" (such a silly notion to begin with) nor do they care about how we live here in the states. They want the right to live their lives and have foreign entities STOP meddling with how they live. But, as long as there is oil dependency in this world I don't think that is going to change. Not until the oil runs out that is


Thanks for sharing your informed perspective. Certainly makes more sense than what our "leaders" shovel down to the masses.
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Old 12-25-2007, 08:30 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,152,076 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Style View Post
TnHillTooper

I am Muslim, my family is from Africa, and I assure you that Muslims have never had some reverence or desire to be like or immolate America (not sure if that is what you meant, if I misunderstood you then I apologize), and it has always been that way. The reverence you speak of is actually a willingness on the part of Muslim nations to do business with America, because their hands were not dirty at the time (unlike some European nations). Ikhwan Al Muslimeen (muslim brotherhood), and other movements in modern times are all results of repressive societies backed by western governments. Basically what I am saying, they are natural occurrences in repressive societies (for European examples look at the IRA or Basq movements) and a inherent desire by the people to live as they would choose. As opposed to the present situation they are now under, where they have puppet governments ruling over them (these govt. have been installed and/or backed by western governments). Again this goes back to colonialism or neocolonialism as it is practiced today. As for Al Qaeda, they are mostly from saudi and egypt (the leaders). As for their motivations, in the case of Saudi Arabia you have a monarchy installed by brits and now backed by America. This monarchy is repressive and has spread tyranny and corruption on the people. As a result, some of these people have become radicalized. Its the same all over the world really, if people are not able to express themselves in a manner of their choosing they generally revolt in some way or form, again neocolonialism.

I think if our government would stop meddling in others affairs, and focus on ours we would be much, much safer. Again the Muslim world doesn't care about America's "freedoms" (such a silly notion to begin with) nor do they care about how we live here in the states. They want the right to live their lives and have foreign entities STOP meddling with how they live. But, as long as there is oil dependency in this world I don't think that is going to change. Not until the oil runs out that is.

I would have to see his name in Arabic to know which pronunciation is right. Kotb is pronounce Koot-Ba, Kootub is different. Kutb in arabi (should be spelled Qutb actually) means pole where as Kutub can mean a book or writing (something along those lines). I would actually have to see his name in Arabic to know which is right.
First off, Sayyid Qutb (also Syed, Seyyid, Sayid, or Sayed; last name also Koteb or Kutb) if that helps.

Sayed Kutb's disdain for the decadence of the US was in part because he saw that individualism and liberalism were the causes of immorality and decadence. It seems his views were for the most part philosophical but after his imprisonment and subsequent torture in Egypt, he became far more radicalized and laid the blame on Egyptian societies embracing of western culture to a large extent.

I think this series did a fair part in showing that these fundamentalist and radical views were not indicative of the society as a whole. I believe there is mention that much of the support for the more radical elements were from young males disillusioned and angered with not only the oppressive nature of various Islamic states but as you mentioned, their association with western nations which many radical elements viewed as the systemic root of their own oppressive governments.

Another telling point was when one of the Arabic jihadist who was being recruited to fight in Afghanistan stated they didn't have a clue as to where Afghanistan even was or where one would find a plane that would go there. There was no real association between the Mujahideen and the Arabic radicalized elements that would later become known as Al Qaeda. This is something I was not aware of.

I tend to favor a non-interventionist foreign policy and look back to even recent history of when Ronald Reagan pulled out of Lebanon and the suicide bombings dropped to next to none. Reagan later wrote in his memoirs that he had basically made a mistake for trying to intervene in the Middle East, a place he thought was apparently too departed from western ideals to deal with much outside of basic trade.

There were parts of this series that talked about the events in Algeria and Northern Africa that I have not read yet but plan to as soon as I am done with my current reading list. In respects to the bombings that were perpetrated by Ayman Zawahiri with the hopes that the general population would rise up in revolt but that never took place. So when the government cracked down in Egypt and Algeria, they moved to Afghanistan.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan61 View Post
No, Liberals and their vision of America are the heros in this Doc. It is the Christian Conservatives and Islamist suicide bombers (who are basically the same according to the piece) reactions to the pure utopian liberal political philosphies of the greatest generation that caused 911
Well, I have watched this series twice and I never saw anything that resembled a hero. Maybe your link took you elsewhere?
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Old 12-25-2007, 08:41 PM
 
2,971 posts, read 2,246,582 times
Reputation: 658
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan61 View Post
No, Liberals and their vision of America are the heros in this Doc. It is the Christian Conservatives and Islamist suicide bombers (who are basically the same according to the piece) reactions to the pure utopian liberal political philosphies of the greatest generation that caused 911
The question is do you believe they are "basically the same" as you claim your piece proclaims?

This is what is scary. That people buy into this propaganda that they are selling, that Christian Conservatives and Islamic suicide bombers are "one in the same."

Because my friend if you do believe this I am afraid you, and those who believe like you are in for a rude awakening.
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Old 12-25-2007, 08:47 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,152,076 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunky1 View Post
The question is do you believe they are "basically the same" as you claim your piece proclaims?

This is what is scary. That people buy into this propaganda that they are selling, that Christian Conservatives and Islamic suicide bombers are "one in the same."

Because my friend if you do believe this I am afraid you, and those who believe like you are in for a rude awakening.
I don't believe Bryan watched the film series as it never so states that Christian conservatives equate to radical Islamic fundamentalist. In fact, it makes the distinction that this isn't the case.

Hard to judge the contents of a program that hasn't been viewed, unless Bryan has a crystal ball or doubles for Madam Cleo
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Old 12-25-2007, 09:23 PM
 
Location: America
6,993 posts, read 17,313,667 times
Reputation: 2093
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
First off, Sayyid Qutb (also Syed, Seyyid, Sayid, or Sayed; last name also Koteb or Kutb) if that helps.

Sayed Kutb's disdain for the decadence of the US was in part because he saw that individualism and liberalism were the causes of immorality and decadence. It seems his views were for the most part philosophical but after his imprisonment and subsequent torture in Egypt, he became far more radicalized and laid the blame on Egyptian societies embracing of western culture to a large extent.

I think this series did a fair part in showing that these fundamentalist and radical views were not indicative of the society as a whole. I believe there is mention that much of the support for the more radical elements were from young males disillusioned and angered with not only the oppressive nature of various Islamic states but as you mentioned, their association with western nations which many radical elements viewed as the systemic root of their own oppressive governments.

Another telling point was when one of the Arabic jihadist who was being recruited to fight in Afghanistan stated they didn't have a clue as to where Afghanistan even was or where one would find a plane that would go there. There was no real association between the Mujahideen and the Arabic radicalized elements that would later become known as Al Qaeda. This is something I was not aware of.

I tend to favor a non-interventionist foreign policy and look back to even recent history of when Ronald Reagan pulled out of Lebanon and the suicide bombings dropped to next to none. Reagan later wrote in his memoirs that he had basically made a mistake for trying to intervene in the Middle East, a place he thought was apparently too departed from western ideals to deal with much outside of basic trade.

There were parts of this series that talked about the events in Algeria and Northern Africa that I have not read yet but plan to as soon as I am done with my current reading list. In respects to the bombings that were perpetrated by Ayman Zawahiri with the hopes that the general population would rise up in revolt but that never took place. So when the government cracked down in Egypt and Algeria, they moved to Afghanistan.





Well, I have watched this series twice and I never saw anything that resembled a hero. Maybe your link took you elsewhere?
Just to explain another thing. The Muslim identity is nothing like anything the west has ever seen. Let's look at Christianity in America, if a Black Christian in Uganda gets killed or a group of them gets oppressed, White Christians for the most part don't give a rats arse. In Islam it doesn't matter if the person is in Mongolia, if he is Muslim and being oppressed, then the entire Muslim world feels it. This is why you had Muslims as far away as Nigeria showing support to the Muslims in Chechnya by traveling there and fighting against the Russians. Islam has more of a unifying effect among its adherents (much like Judaism). So this is why you have Arabs who couldn't point to Afghanistan on a map, yet they felt a sense of outrage when the Russians came and did what they did there. I should say though, I am born and raised in America and love this country. I would just like to see our country back the heck off of other countries and help our freaking people. I have seen friends lose everything to the economic bubbles and this government has done nothing in the way of helping its people, its ridiculous. We have enough domestic problems.

I forgot to mention, on Qutb's wittings. Again this wasn't written in a "I care what they do in America" sort of way. It was written in a "this is the culture you are inviting into our country" sort of way. Again a reaction to neocolonialism, and the export of western values into Egypt. They saw it as a attempt to erode Islamic values for the purpose of imposing western will in the region.

Last edited by Wild Style; 12-25-2007 at 09:42 PM..
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Old 12-25-2007, 09:49 PM
PPG
 
509 posts, read 1,420,833 times
Reputation: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunky1 View Post
The question is do you believe they are "basically the same" as you claim your piece proclaims?

This is what is scary. That people buy into this propaganda that they are selling, that Christian Conservatives and Islamic suicide bombers are "one in the same."

Because my friend if you do believe this I am afraid you, and those who believe like you are in for a rude awakening.
I think he meant that both groups share the same theory, which I agree with. Do you dispute sharing the same theory? If so what are the differences? There are a lot of similarities.
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Old 12-25-2007, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,714 posts, read 8,442,658 times
Reputation: 1052
I posted re: this documentary many moons ago.
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