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Old 09-19-2014, 04:54 AM
 
Location: Texas
37,937 posts, read 17,805,641 times
Reputation: 10366

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
Ok, so let's say the three people you mentioned don't deserve a raise. What about minimum wage workers who come in every day, work hard, do a good job, don't have any other alternatives, and still can't make ends meet?

Do they deserve a raise?
"Dont have any alternatives" How so?
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:23 AM
 
Location: No Mask For Me This Time, Either
5,647 posts, read 5,069,518 times
Reputation: 6054
Quote:
Originally Posted by Workin_Hard View Post
There are always alternatives for those who seek opportunity and are willing to work for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by random_thoughts View Post
That's a very general statement and like most of its kind - false.
No, it is not. Why is it that the US is the most sought after location on Earth to immigrate to? Because the opportunities here are virtually limitless compared to everywhere else. People are literally dying to get here to take advantage of them. My own wife arrived here (legally) in 1996 with an overnight bag and a few dollars in her pocket. By age 30 she was pulling in six figures, having applied herself diligently to achieving success. The success stories in America these days is largely written by those who have come from somewhere else and worked to achive. Not so much with those born and raised here with a sense of entitlement.
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:26 AM
 
Location: NE Ohio
30,421 posts, read 20,258,541 times
Reputation: 8958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
For one thing, because it would get them off food stamps (that I pay for) and make Wal-Mart's prices actually reflect the cost of the product they deliver, such as it is. Market economics are supposed to be a good thing, no?
So, is this the new mantra of the Left? I have seen this "meme" (this horse manure) repeated a lot recently; the "true cost" of the product or service "includes the cost of the food stamps, etc." that the government pays them.

In the first place, the government is not paying welfare to "make up for the difference" between what an employer pays and what someone thinks they need to live on. This is an argument rooted in pure Leftist gobbledygook. The argument is totally baseless. If this were true, then welfare payments would be directly tied to the amount one earns, being reduced by every dollar the recipient earns above zero. This is not the case.

No argument has ever been made in Congress that welfare is a subsidy, to subsidize wages paid by a business. And welfare was never designed or intended as such.

Secondly, the value of labor is not more than what one produces. If one demands $15/hr, they must produce at least that much at a bare minimum. If one can only produce $7/hr in value, that is all they are worth. (If business is forced to pay more than the value of labor, that job or position will be eliminated.)
Therefore, the "cost" of any product or service is and always will be only the cost of labor plus the cost of the goods being delivered.

The cost of labor is also supply and demand dependent. Thousands competing for the same job drives wages down, while limited supply (few people qualified and available for a given job) drives wages up. That is economics 101.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
As luck would have it, I have other choices - CostCo and Trader Joe's treat their people decently, and that would be worth something to me, even if it wasn't for the fact that they seem to be able to hire people who do try to make the experience of shopping less miserable.
They probably expect you to deliver value that is at least equal to what they are going to pay you, too. Higher pay usually means harder work and more responsibility.
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:31 AM
 
Location: No Mask For Me This Time, Either
5,647 posts, read 5,069,518 times
Reputation: 6054
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
You'd be unhappy too if corporations prevented you from gaining the skills needed throughout your life and forced you into low income servitude for the rest of your life.
That's true if and only if those corporations quite literally hold you as a slave, imprisoning you in the confines of their store and forcing you under threat of death to report to your duty station each day, returning you a cell at the end of your shift. On the rare occasion I visit a WalMart, I have never seen the holding areas for employees. Are you implying that perhaps I haven't looked hard enough for such facilities in the store?

This may come as a shock, but people actually can seek betterment outside the store and outside their obligated working hours, leading to possibilities and opportunities beyond that particular job. I worked a full time job, 12-hour shifts at a second weekend job, and still found time to attend school on weekday evenings, eventually giving me the resources to qualify for a much better position. Such was the cost of making bad choices in a misspent youth.
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:31 AM
 
Location: NE Ohio
30,421 posts, read 20,258,541 times
Reputation: 8958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Versatile View Post
Agreed! Why do we have to make up the slack that big business gets over with?
You are not "making up the slack." People get paid exactly what their labor and skills are worth. Not more.
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:39 AM
 
Location: NE Ohio
30,421 posts, read 20,258,541 times
Reputation: 8958
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
The only problem is that there is no promotion up the ladder anymore. There is a dearth of good jobs, and it's due to automation and offshoring.
So, find a new career. Start your own business. Learn new skills.
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:41 AM
 
1,259 posts, read 826,235 times
Reputation: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Workin_Hard View Post
No, it is not. Why is it that the US is the most sought after location on Earth to immigrate to? Because the opportunities here are virtually limitless compared to everywhere else. People are literally dying to get here to take advantage of them.
Yes, people from third world countries are still dying to get here. Hooray. We're so much better than Bangladesh or Haiti!
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:45 AM
 
Location: NE Ohio
30,421 posts, read 20,258,541 times
Reputation: 8958
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
I don't think so, I know that to be a proven fact. If you want to ignorantly deny it that's fine but it's a fact.
It may be true, but to be competitive and hold consumer prices down, if you force business to pay more than the value of labor, that job will be eliminated one way or another.
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:49 AM
 
20,948 posts, read 19,015,110 times
Reputation: 10270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Workin_Hard View Post
That's true if and only if those corporations quite literally hold you as a slave, imprisoning you in the confines of their store and forcing you under threat of death to report to your duty station each day, returning you a cell at the end of your shift. On the rare occasion I visit a WalMart, I have never seen the holding areas for employees. Are you implying that perhaps I haven't looked hard enough for such facilities in the store?

This may come as a shock, but people actually can seek betterment outside the store and outside their obligated working hours, leading to possibilities and opportunities beyond that particular job. I worked a full time job, 12-hour shifts at a second weekend job, and still found time to attend school on weekday evenings, eventually giving me the resources to qualify for a much better position. Such was the cost of making bad choices in a misspent youth.
I agree.

Your choices made in your youth through teen years and into adulthood are yours and yours alone.
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Old 09-19-2014, 05:51 AM
 
Location: No Mask For Me This Time, Either
5,647 posts, read 5,069,518 times
Reputation: 6054
Quote:
Originally Posted by nononsenseguy View Post
You are not "making up the slack." People get paid exactly what their labor and skills are worth. Not more.
There is amongst the left this nonsense belief that businesses, like government, have some type of societal obligation to citizen-employees. They don't seem to understand that the primary goal of the business is to generate income for the business and not for the employees. If an employee only generates $7 an hour worth of value, then they shall be paid in return some amount less than $7 an hour, the difference covering overhead costs and profit for the business. An employee who posesses and utilizes skills which generate a higher value for the business is in a position to seek higher wages in return for those skills. An unskilled laborer is in no position to bargain when there is an ample supply of workers available. The obligations of a worker belong to that worker - not the employer. If I have obligated myself in some way to needing $10,000 per month, then it is up to me, not my employer, to make sure I have $10,000 per month available. It's not the employers' problem, it's mine.

If I make only $7 an hour, then I should not be obligating myself beyond that. It is an illusion (or rather a delusion) that an unskilled person will make enough in available minimum wage jobs to support a family, and such a worker should take great pains to avoid creating a family and the needs that come with one. In every fast food place I've been to, in the washroom there is always a sign saying "Employees must wash hands". Maybe there should also be in the ladies' room a sign saying "Keep your legs shut" and in the men's room a sign saying "Keep it in your pants!"
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