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So your solution is to put more people on welfare?
The people who have no further ambition than to watch a hunk of meat sizzle on a griddle put themselves on welfare. Companies are all about maximizing profit and if this stupid groundswell of raising MW looks like its gaining traction, the workers will price themselves out of a job.
No, there isn't. The U.S. has serious structural inequality problems. Policy openly favors the rich getting richer, not the poor man climbing the ladder.
Excuses.
Pedro was right. If you make a genuine effort to improve your situation, it is extremely likely that you will be, in some way, successful.
People aren't trying, though. That's the problem. They're whining and crying about their situation, waiting for someone to do something about it. The thing is, though, they're not grasping that it's THEM who needs to "do something about it."
Life ain't free or fair, and it never has been. That isn't going to change, no matter how much money you steal from employers to give to their employees.
To those who advocate for a "living wage" how do you determine what a living wage should be for different types of jobs and people of different educational/job skill levels?
What should be a living wage for a janitor,a construction worker,an auto mechanic,security guard,cashier etc?
Living wage - so that's the new buzz word now?
Your wage is determined by skill, experience, and demand. Your employer has no obligation at all to provide some made up "living wage". That's up to you.
You can keep spinning this any way you want. In the end it boils down to the fact that minimum wage is supposed to be a cushion. No one was meant to LIVE on minimum wage.
What ever happened to the American dream ? what happened to having a work ethic, working for your family ... improving yourself to get ahead ? Too many people expect to have their lives paid for, thinking they are entitled to all the latest, greatest gadgets and best of everything. These people need to get off their x-box's .. get off their PS3's and get their lazy asses to work !
No, minimum wage was always intended to be a living wage, that was the point. Teenagers with summer jobs undercutting the market and working for unlivable wages is exactly the sort of market behavior the minimum wage is supposed to prevent. That's what it's for.
Anybody working a full week should be able to feed, shelter and care for themselves and their children. That's what is meant by a living wage. If you allow lower wages than that, you're saying we should have an underclass of people who can't eat or shelter themselves from the elements. What is the purpose of that, except to feel righteously superior to people who obviously deserve to endure suffering for whatever you perceive their sins to be?
No, minimum wage was always intended to be a living wage, that was the point. Teenagers with summer jobs undercutting the market and working for unlivable wages is exactly the sort of market behavior the minimum wage is supposed to prevent. That's what it's for.
Anybody working a full week should be able to feed, shelter and care for themselves and their children. That's what is meant by a living wage. If you allow lower wages than that, you're saying we should have an underclass of people who can't eat or shelter themselves from the elements. What is the purpose of that, except to feel righteously superior to people who obviously deserve to endure suffering for whatever you perceive their sins to be?
Why is it so difficult for liberals to fully understand economics. Minimum wage jobs NEVER were there to provide compensation to feed, shelter and provide for a family. So why are you libs all over this now. I worked for minimum wage and couldn't provide for a family and I knew that the job was not a career.
Minimum wage is for those who provide a minimum of experience, talent, education and training to their employer.
No, minimum wage was always intended to be a living wage, that was the point. Teenagers with summer jobs undercutting the market and working for unlivable wages is exactly the sort of market behavior the minimum wage is supposed to prevent. That's what it's for.
Anybody working a full week should be able to feed, shelter and care for themselves and their children. That's what is meant by a living wage. If you allow lower wages than that, you're saying we should have an underclass of people who can't eat or shelter themselves from the elements. What is the purpose of that, except to feel righteously superior to people who obviously deserve to endure suffering for whatever you perceive their sins to be?
No, it's very relevant in that you just made up a hypothetical choice without a possible answer.
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Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
For some people the choice isn't there. We need burger flippers. If it is unlivable, we relegate those people to poverty. Everyone cannot be skilled. If everyone is skilled no one is skilled. If everyone has a Bachelor's degree, we will still need burger flippers.
We can still have burger flippers.
Can you tell me what law of physics states that a person with a 40 hour per week job who wants to pay down some bills can't work a second job as a burger flipper?
I see students, both high school and college, flipping burgers all the time. Have you never seen this?
Why is it that a doctor business owner or lawyer can work 80 hours, but a burger flipper can't? A person flipping burgers for 80 hours a week at minimum wage can easily survive while paying for health insurance. Do you not believe this? I can show you the math and prove it.
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Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Anecdotes aren't appropriate for rational debate. I don't believe in X, therefore X doesn't exist. That is a poor logical premise.
It's not just an anecdote, it's something that happens constantly. This isn't like me saying I saw the Lochness monsters, hence, Nessy exists. This is me saying, look birds are flying, and that birds are capable of flight.
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Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Supply and demand.
EXACTLY!!!
Practically anyone can fill the demand for being a burger flipper, there is practically and endless supply; therefore, the value is extremely low.
If you don't want to be making minimum wage, you need to acquire some talent that will increase your demand and raise you pay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
What theory is that?
1) A theory requires the scientific method to test. The correct term is hypothesis.
2) Which hypothesis of mine are you referring to?
That business will pay $1 if we removed minimum wage laws. You're essentially saying business can dictate labor costs and will pay the cheapest rate possible. If this were true, everyone would be making minimum wage now.
However, you seem to recognize supply and demand; therefore, you should realize that business can't truly dictate wages and they are set by supply and demand.
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Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Clearly you haven't read the context behind the Fair Labor Standards Act. The very concept of minimum wage was to avoid needing second jobs. People shouldn't work 60+ hours a week to avoid starvation.
For tens of thousands of years people have worked more than 60+ hours a week to provide food, water and shelter to themselves and their families.
Have you ever know someone who was trying to become a doctor? How many hours did they spend studying and working in a hospital during their internship on average per week? Know any lawyers who started at a big firm? How many hours did they work beyond 40 without additional compensation to move ahead?
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Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Why not? If they work full time flipping burgers, why don't they deserve to eat? They are working.
Burger flippers can afford a place to live and be able to eat working 40 hours a week. Do you believe this isn't the case? If so, we can run the math real quick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Actually I'm not. Equal results is saying all people should be paid X. Minimum wage means all people should be paid greater than or equal to X. They are not synonomous.
Which means you are wanting to guarantee a minimum result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
o, there isn't. The U.S. has serious structural inequality problems. Policy openly favors the rich getting richer, not the poor man climbing the ladder.
No, basic economics (as in the most basic) favor the rich getting richer; however, the poor man is perfectly capable of climbing that ladder and eventually reaching the same height or greater.
But sure, if a poor person essentially does nothing to get ahead, they will not get ahead.
An increase in pay would be beneficial to the economy. Look what happened in the era from the end of WWII to the oil crisis in the early 1970s. The era was defined by unprecedented economic prosperity. Wages rose steadily, people spent more; they bought houses, cars, new appliances and had babies in record numbers (the baby boom). The number of Americans in the middle class swelled to 60% and the poverty rate reached its lowest level ever. Men could support their wife and several children on one income.
Since the oil crisis after the 1970s, real wages for the average American have declined and so has purchasing power. As a result of this, upward mobility is more difficult to obtain, the middle class Americans are falling behind while the wealthy Americans are experiencing their own form of economic prosperity. Marriage and birth rates have fallen, people are crushed by more debt. Families need two incomes to support two children. The poverty rate has risen and millions of people are depending on food stamps and welfare.
A higher wage would make it easier for the average person, especially young adults to move ahead in life and set up their own households at an earlier age. One way we could do this would be to return the tax rate on the wealthy to pre-Raegan levels.
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