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Jesus forgives and forgets, but the NSA has it stored somewhere in that building east of Salt Lake City.
Why do people love Calvary, cause it washes their sins away? Well not really. It doesn't wash the consequences away, it washes away the association of the sin with that individual. The Christian organizations has billions of followers based on that premise.
So if its clear that people don't want their past always accessible, why do we have an NSA and all those other organizations that do exactly that, store peoples past?
I heard on NPR the other day, the speaker said, "give me 5 minutes in your search history, and I will find some way to shame you." Do we really want that?
Anthropologists learned long ago that there are only 2 ways any society controls itself.
One is shame, and the other is guilt.
Japan is an example of a shame society. Children learn they must not shame their family, their community, and ultimately their nation.
This works very well in societies that are homogenous, and have little religious diversity. it works especially well in societies that lack natural resources and/or the territorial room to move, where everyone lives in close proximity to everyone else.
Guilt is all internal. A child learns early that he is being good or bad, and bad is an internal weakness, something that is a terrible fault with them alone.
This works well in societies that are widely diverse racially, culturally, and have relatively few things in common.
Instead of depending on others to put the brakes on an individual's behavior, the individual carries around an inner set of brakes they apply themselves.
All societies use both shame and guilt, but only one or the other is predominant. Christianity is all about guilt, with it's notion of inborn sin. Sin plays little part in a shame-based society; the only sin is humiliating someone else, not the individual.
While there are other religions that are also based on guilt, and others based on shame, all religion is less important than the enculturation a child receives. Every child gets enculturation from more than just his parents; every other member of the society also teaches the child, mostly enforcing what they learn from their parents.
If the NSA thinks shame has a lot of power in our society, they had better start getting some anthropological education fast. Americans are not very prone to the powers of shame at all. Especially when their guilt mechanisms tell them they have nothing to be ashamed about.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike
Anthropologists learned long ago that there are only 2 ways any society controls itself.
One is shame, and the other is guilt.
Japan is an example of a shame society. Children learn they must not shame their family, their community, and ultimately their nation.
This works very well in societies that are homogenous, and have little religious diversity. it works especially well in societies that lack natural resources and/or the territorial room to move, where everyone lives in close proximity to everyone else.
Guilt is all internal. A child learns early that he is being good or bad, and bad is an internal weakness, something that is a terrible fault with them alone.
This works well in societies that are widely diverse racially, culturally, and have relatively few things in common.
Instead of depending on others to put the brakes on an individual's behavior, the individual carries around an inner set of brakes they apply themselves.
All societies use both shame and guilt, but only one or the other is predominant. Christianity is all about guilt, with it's notion of inborn sin. Sin plays little part in a shame-based society; the only sin is humiliating someone else, not the individual.
While there are other religions that are also based on guilt, and others based on shame, all religion is less important than the enculturation a child receives. Every child gets enculturation from more than just his parents; every other member of the society also teaches the child, mostly enforcing what they learn from their parents.
If the NSA thinks shame has a lot of power in our society, they had better start getting some anthropological education fast. Americans are not very prone to the powers of shame at all. Especially when their guilt mechanisms tell them they have nothing to be ashamed about.
And that is why I don't like the 'word' religion. In reference to your last sentence, 'he who has sinned not, cast the first stone'.
That is really interesting banjomike. I have never thought of that being why Jesus is such a popular figure. Thanks!
Ideally, I think a consequence based judgement system mixed with guilt/remorse is preferable to a only guilt or shame based society.
While shame may not influence much in private spheres, especially here in the US, in public spheres it is still very much at work.
But I believe that fear of shame limits learning. Your not going to speak out or look something up if you fear continual mockery, or even job related consequences from saying something.
That is really interesting banjomike. I have never thought of that being why Jesus is such a popular figure. Thanks!
Ideally, I think a consequence based judgement system mixed with guilt/remorse is preferable to a only guilt or shame based society.
While shame may not influence much in private spheres, especially here in the US, in public spheres it is still very much at work.
But I believe that fear of shame limits learning. Your not going to speak out or look something up if you fear continual mockery, or even job related consequences from saying something.
Consequences always follow in either system.
Most societies have a mixture of both- most of it depends on other things, like trust and honor. A public official makes a contract with his constituents when elected not to betray their trust (which is most effectively controlled by guilt) and will not dishonor them (which is best controlled by shame).
Deeply religious Christians are ruled by guilt, which is the reason a christian criminal will confess to a crime that has no good evidence. Redemption from sin is a cleansing of guilt.
Soldiers hold to their ranks because of shame. If the guy next to him has the courage to stand, how can a soldier live with the shame if that guy sees him break and run while the other fights on?
The criminal could also be the soldier. The consequences for either case could be identical.
Anthropologists learned long ago that there are only 2 ways any society controls itself.
One is shame, and the other is guilt.
Japan is an example of a shame society. Children learn they must not shame their family, their community, and ultimately their nation.
This works very well in societies that are homogenous, and have little religious diversity. it works especially well in societies that lack natural resources and/or the territorial room to move, where everyone lives in close proximity to everyone else.
Guilt is all internal. A child learns early that he is being good or bad, and bad is an internal weakness, something that is a terrible fault with them alone.
This works well in societies that are widely diverse racially, culturally, and have relatively few things in common.
Instead of depending on others to put the brakes on an individual's behavior, the individual carries around an inner set of brakes they apply themselves.
All societies use both shame and guilt, but only one or the other is predominant. Christianity is all about guilt, with it's notion of inborn sin. Sin plays little part in a shame-based society; the only sin is humiliating someone else, not the individual.
While there are other religions that are also based on guilt, and others based on shame, all religion is less important than the enculturation a child receives. Every child gets enculturation from more than just his parents; every other member of the society also teaches the child, mostly enforcing what they learn from their parents.
If the NSA thinks shame has a lot of power in our society, they had better start getting some anthropological education fast. Americans are not very prone to the powers of shame at all. Especially when their guilt mechanisms tell them they have nothing to be ashamed about.
I think there is at least a third control... reward. For example, if one is good s/he will go to heaven... or the child gets a cookie... etc.
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