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Originally Posted by dsjj251
1.Democrats do believe in Constitutional government, the argument arises when we disagree on what is Constitutional.
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No. The argument goes much further than that.
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But people like you take that to mean we dont believe int he Constitution itself, which is grasping at straws at best and a down right lie on your part at worst.
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No, it isn't. But thanks for that display of liberal open mindedness. If someone doesn't share your opinion, they're either grasping at straws or lying. What a shining example of tolerance for others you are.
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2. Your example doesnt even prove your point. You were arguing that Nancy Pelosi said the Constitution is irrelevant when she did no such thing .
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Yes, she did. When someone asks you if the most significant piece of legislation in the past half century is constitutional and you are the Majority Leader of the House, you don't respond with "Are you serious?"
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1. The Constitution is outdated. Article 1, section 2, Paragraph 3 says that i am 3/5th a person, are you really arguing that this isnt outdated ?
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Don't be stupid. That has already been amended away. You'll have to try harder than that. That was pathetic.
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2. The founding father gave us the ability to add amendments to the Constitution for a reason.
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Yes. Therefore, the constitution is not a living document, and that's where liberals show how they do not believe in constitutional government. Instead of amending the constitution, they simply reinterpret it. Given that the constitution provides an amendment process, no "reinterpretation" should be done.
The constitution says that any power not granted to the federal government is reserved to the states. But liberals take the generic general welfare clause to mean that the federal government can do anything it wants, even though the 10th amendment explicitly states that the federal government cannot do that and Federalist Paper 41 anticipates that exact interpretation of the general welfare clause and states that it is a misconstruction.
That is why we say you don't believe in constitutional government. Because you aren't following the constitution. It really couldn't be any simpler than that, and it isn't open to intellectually honest debate. The combination of the 10th amendment and Federalist 41 absolutely destroy the liberal view of the constitution. They leave no doubt whatsoever.
And that's the fundamental argument between conservatives and liberals. So your comment about grasping at straws and outright lies earlier is now shown to be completely wrong.
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1. We are discussing Democrats and Republicans, not ideology.
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The Democrat Party has a party platform. The Republican party has a party platform. Those platforms constitute ideologies. So quit being pedantic.
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The Democratic Party consist of Liberals, Progressives, Populist, socialist,Moderates and even some Libertarians. Many would even argue that the Republican Party has just as many factions.
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There are no liberal libertarians. There are "left libertarians" but they are not libertarians. Left libertarianism is a completely separate philosophy that has nothing whatsoever to do with libertarianism.
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2. The people why you are calling experts are (im guessing) cabinet secretaries or some high level officials who's job it is to help govern the entire nation, not just cater to one individual person
The idea of imperial presidencies comes from Republicans, not Democrats.
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Is that so? Based on what? You asked the other person to show proof, so where's your proof backing up that statement?
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If you believe the current President is doing so , show proof. Executive orders are in the constitution, if you want to claim he is a abusing that power, show how. Their simple use isnt one.
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He used executive orders to enact welfare reform and immigration reform. Executive orders are not to be used to change the law, they are to be used to direct the executive branch how to function. If the law says to deport someone, you cannot use an Executive Order to stop deporting them. That is using the Executive Order to change legislation, and that is unconstitutional. Now you know how he abused their use.
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And by your own definition republicans are for big government as well. Defining who can marry who, what drugs you can and can not take/buy legally, what days and hours you may buy alcohol, the ability for the state to kill an individual.
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No, that's you redefining what constitutes big government so you can make a false equivalency between Republicans and Democrats. That's a fallacious argument.
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The most basic right a person has is to live and its one that Republicans believe the state has the power to take away.
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I'm no fan of the death penalty, but it's completely wrong to say that it takes anyone's rights away. Convicted felons lose their rights, so there is no right being taken away if a convicted felon is put to death.
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You may very well be for liberty, but arguing that someone else isnt simply because they define it differently is disingenuous.
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No, it isn't disingenuous in the slightest. It's just you once again with the logical fallacies. In this case, you're equivocating the word "liberty". If he uses the word liberty to mean X, Y, and Z and you aren't for X, Y, and Z then you aren't for liberty. There's nothing disingenuous about it. Just different meanings for the same word.
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