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Old 01-03-2008, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,172,642 times
Reputation: 4937

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
i can totally respect that you haven't paid into the system. i might applaud you for it if you truly make no use of any of the above and are completely off the grid and are prepared to fight and/or die if you get invaded, for example. but, to some extent, you are making use of some of that. as you type and convey your thoughts via the internet, for example.
For clarification purposes - I have not paid into SOCIAL SECURITY for almost 3 decades.

Income taxes and Social Security taxes are two totally different things.

I trust this clears up your misunderstanding
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:11 PM
 
20,187 posts, read 23,780,739 times
Reputation: 9283
Countries can prosper without socialized care... Socialized governments are also known to be ailing financially due to their socialized programs. Socialized programs is about one thing and one thing ONLY... and that is, they force you to pay services for someone else's care. Socialized care is anything but perfect. The notion that socialized care does not have the elites controlling those below is ludicrious as most socialized governments have more elites controlling those below them and believe me.. the elites are NOT getting poorer from all the socialized care. And so who ARE these elites that people keep talking about... is it the successful and hard-working? Nope... it is your celebrities, atheletes, CEOs, Mega-jackpot lottery winners, politicians, patent-trolls, hedge fund managers and yet when we talk about socialized care... are these elites paying for it? Nope.. it ends on the plate of the successful and hard-working... the people who had to make it there are paying for it.. not the elites.. so don't confuse the subject who you want to pay for it, it certainly is not the elite...
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:12 PM
 
1,267 posts, read 3,283,235 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
For clarification purposes - I have not paid into SOCIAL SECURITY for almost 3 decades.

Income taxes and Social Security taxes are two totally different things.

I trust this clears up your misunderstanding
ah. i read "and have not paid into the system for almost 3 decades" and thought that meant you have not paid into the system for almost 3 decades. yes, that clears up the miscommunication.
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:19 PM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,406,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
i agree we should be familiar with some of this stuff. more familiar than we often are. there is some apalling stuff in there, some of which would probably be apalling to all of us, even some of those in the places that reap some from some of the pork, for example.
I have spent literally thousands of hours with the federal budget documents over the years, most of them with the Appendix, and from my perspective, I would guess that most people would be surprised at how LITTLE that's appalling is in there...
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:22 PM
 
1,267 posts, read 3,283,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
I have spent literally thousands of hours with the federal budget documents over the years, most of them with the Appendix, and from my perspective, I would guess that most people would be surprised at how LITTLE that's appalling is in there...
you don't find roughly $1.5 billion per day spent on "defense" and "homeland security" (which seems a little like a branch of the defense department to me) while much of the country seems to think we need to reassess whether we should be so extended to be a bit appalling?
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,264,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
and what reasoning, in particular, are you talking about?

The mode of thought that believes that good intentions can be scientifically quantified.

btw, the kyoto protocol has had little time to have any "effect", right?
It expires in four years. How much time does it need)
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:38 PM
 
1,267 posts, read 3,283,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
It expires in four years. How much time does it need)
it's been "in effect", in a sense, for a few days. more than that.

as for quantifying intentions, i wonder what you refer to? concerning the fact that some carbon based molecules are radiatively active and very significant in terms of the planet's energy budget, soot and other particulates on reflective surfaces often makes them less reflective and so warms or melts them via solar radiance absorption, and that the near surface of the planet has warmed by about 1C over the past century (which can obviously make a significant difference considering the regional size of what was below the water melting point before the change that is now above it) while the cryosphere melts, none of that is "good intentions"; it's just what is. so i don't imagine you're referring to any of that. or to the HDI, which incorporates some measures of good health of a country's citizens; some measures of people's health are, well, measureable, and health care can be provided to people while providing things to people can come from good intention. so, maybe that's part of it. otherwise, i'm not sure exactly what you're getting at.

either way, i would be interested in hearing your thoughts on what presidential candidates might "best" promote the standard(s) of living in the US, and what they're thoughts on government size and taxation might have to do with that...

Last edited by hello-world; 01-03-2008 at 03:47 PM..
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,264,523 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
it's been "in effect" for a few days. more than that.

as for quantifying intentions, i wonder what you refer to? concerning the fact that some carbon based molecules are radiatively active and very significant in terms of the planet's energy budget, soot and other particulates on reflective surfaces often makes them less reflective and so warms or melts them via solar radiance absorption, and that the near surface of the planet has warmed by about 1C over the past century or so while the cryosphere melts, none of that is "good intentions", it's just what appears to be the case. so i don't imagine you're refering to any of that. or to the HDI, which incorporates some measures of good health of a country's citizens; some measures of people's health are, well, measureable, and health care can be provided to people while providing things to people can come from good intention. so, i'm not sure exactly what you're getting at.
I'm getting at how different standards are applied to different countries, depending on whose favor is being most assiduously curried by "World Opinion", e.g., China/India vs the US. In other words, it's a fantasy shadow play, not unlike the bleating about "raising living standards" by manipulating the instruments by which wealth is created...
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:52 PM
 
3,570 posts, read 3,741,930 times
Reputation: 1344
Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
so maybe it's too much of a black and white question to be answerable as a yes or no question? for example, maybe roseba could be thinking that "take care of me" is too vague, and any answer might be too misinterpretable? roseba - does that sound about right?

Yep. That sounds absolutely right. As GregW mentioned in one of his posts earlier, it's about degree of safety net. That's hardly "taking care of someone cradle to grave". I do see a better safety net as a real incentive for innovation and entrepreneurship. I probably would have went that route if I didn't have to worry about making sure I had food, shelter and health insurance. I have a wealth of ideas.
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:57 PM
 
1,267 posts, read 3,283,235 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
I'm getting at how different standards are applied to different countries, depending on whose favor is being most assiduously curried by "World Opinion", e.g., China/India vs the US. In other words, it's a fantasy shadow play, not unlike the bleating about "raising living standards" by manipulating the instruments by which wealth is created...
what standards are you referring to?

bleating? i know that i, for one, am simply pointing to some curious trends in some of the indices by which people around the world gauge living standards, and asking whether there might be something to be learned there while americans consider this election cycle. do you consider taxation to be a manipulation of "instruments by which wealth is created"? do you consider abolition of taxation to be the right path? if so, what do you suppose some of the ramifications might be for americans' standard of living? and which candidate do you think might best promote your preferences?
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