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Old 01-01-2008, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,159,120 times
Reputation: 35920

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
and i guess medics NEVER make decisions at influenced by their perspective, decisions that might have a couple of effective courses of action, or decisions that are sometimes incorrect? are there any "liberal" medics? do they never make any effective decisions?

Well, speaking as a health care worker, I can tell you, we aren't supposed to sit in judgement of a patient. If Osama bin Laden shows up at the dr's office or ER, you are supposed to treat him like you would treat anyone else with his condition. Speaking for myself and the health care practitioners I have known over the years, we try very hard to be as nonjudgmental as possible. Of course health care practitioners make decisions based on their perspective, how they were trained (different philosophies at virtually every school), etc. Of course we make mistakes. There's an old saying that isn't really funny that doctors bury their mistakes.

i for one don't know where he stood on those issues, though i know he was a pacifist, promoted a "world government", was a vegetarian, considered capitalism to be a predatory ill of human development, and was a strong proponent of civil rights. so i guess you might be able to get some sense from that.

There is some evidence that he beat his wife, and also plagarized some of her writing. Unfortunately, not all pacifists are pacifist in their private lives.

personally, i can't really care so much about labels like "liberal" or "conservative". it seems as though people of all ilks can have something to contribute, as well as something i might disagree with. but, that's me.
Spoken like a true Coloradan!
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:10 AM
 
1,267 posts, read 3,279,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittnurse70 View Post
Spoken like a true Coloradan!
hi pittnurse.

i'm not talking about medics judging a person when i'm talking about whether medics might make decisions differently from one another. i'm talking about decisions people make in the way they go about their job (or politics) that are influenced by some of the same things that influence their personality or the way they "see things"; the point being that it seems we seldom "see things" "as they are", or in other words, there is often more than one way to "see things", neither of which being indisputably "correct". for example, one medic might drive an ambulance through an intersection to get to someone and get them to the hospital more brashly than another, thinking that people can hear the siren and the patient's situation warrants the urgency, and another approaching that intersection more cautiously, thinking perhaps that the risk of someone not hearing the siren and hitting the ambulance, thus endangering the patient that's awaiting them might be too great. neither of which is indisputably "correct", or "simply the way it is". one might get the patient there more quickly but endanger the patient with more accident risk, another might get them there more slowly, thus possibly raising some of the risk of complications due to time-critical trauma but reducing the risk of an accident and missing (or losing) the patient altogether.

as for einstein, my point was that some people that may basically be what some might consider to be "liberal" are not necessarily in a factless lala land as the other poster seemed to be suggesting.

overall, people of various ilks seem to have various attributes to contribute, and as far as i can tell, there is not an absolutely "correct" way of "seeing things" sometimes. i figure pay attention ot the merits of what someone's getting at and not the label. but that's me. coloradna? i don't know! more just an independent minded person, maybe. is that coloradan??

Last edited by hello-world; 01-02-2008 at 12:19 AM..
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Old 01-02-2008, 04:46 AM
 
3,570 posts, read 3,734,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post

thanks - i understand what the GINI index is about, while i was commenting on how interesting it is that countries with less disparity and more socialization/centralization also have high standards of living. incidentally, it also appears higher education standards (and national sanction of that) seems to be there in those places, as well. my original questions were, for example, what candidate do you think might best promote our standard of living, and what do you think their tax plan (no tax, fairtax, e.g.) and economic standpoint might have to do with this.
Others may not, thus the links. I believe we should emulate countries like Sweden et al, because their living standards are quite good, and they have as many freedoms as we do. (for the nay-sayers).

This primary season, I haven't followed the candidates. My favored person did not run and the current crop of "front-runners" are not who I would have chosen. The "better" candidates don't have a chance to win the primary. I'm pretty disgusted by the super early primary season, and also how the whole thing played out in 2004 with the back to back primaries where one or two states chose the winner after the media anointed candidates. I guess now that it is January, I have to put my attention in that direction.
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Old 01-02-2008, 04:48 AM
 
3,570 posts, read 3,734,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
It's also a lot easier to get people to agree to social policies when their fellow countrymen are perceived as "family".... the United States is quickly devolving into a Balkanized, divided nation culturally, racially, and fiscally.
You aren't wrong to a degree. But Canada and Australia aren't inhomogeneous. A lot of countries in Western Europe who are doing well also are not.
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Old 01-02-2008, 04:49 AM
 
3,570 posts, read 3,734,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
In Europe, their conservative party is basically the equivalent of our Democratic party. They've already made the essential philosophical leap to provide social security for all its citizens.
My understanding, is that politics in Europe, is quite a bit more broad. Our Dem and Republican parties just seem like Fraternal twins, comparitively.
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Old 01-02-2008, 06:29 AM
 
1,080 posts, read 1,706,181 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hello-world View Post
and i guess medics NEVER make decisions at influenced by their perspective, decisions that might have a couple of effective courses of action, or decisions that are sometimes incorrect? are there any "liberal" medics? do they never make any effective decisions?
I've met a few liberal medics. Just none that I would want working on me.

Quote:
i for one don't know where he stood on those issues, though i know he was a pacifist, promoted a "world government", was a vegetarian, considered capitalism to be a predatory ill of human development, and was a strong proponent of civil rights. so i guess you might be able to get some sense from that.
Then I guess he was a liberal. Too bad. Good thing he had a good imagination.

Quote:
how about jesus christ? any thoughts on his beliefs? would you consider what you've heard of them as "liberal" or "conservative"?
On the surface, liberal, but at his core, conservative. Yes, he advocated for the poor (which conservatives are not necessarily against...we just don't like charity to be forcibily taken from us in the form of taxes), but in the end, a person is responsible for his actions and has to face the consequences.

Quote:
is it possible that you simply judged some people based on what you thought or heard their political affiliation was?
Of course that's possible.

Quote:
fair enough for you to call the US that. that sounds more like opinion than "fact", though, doesn't it?
Well here's something that is for sure a fact:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...OB_data_US.PNG

Where does everyone want to come to live? The good ol' USofA. They vote with their feet, buddy. Despite all our problems and our obvious racism against anybody not American (), they all want to come here, baby.

Quote:
if your views are shaped by your experiences and other personal things, then isn't it possible that your views are not what "is", but what "is" for YOU; they could be different if you had different experiences, after all and so your own views could be "wrong" by your own judgement as your experience changes them, right?
Peception is reality? Sorry, bud, reality is reality. And when my perception of something doesn't match with reality, I change my perception, because reality isn't very accomodating.

Quote:
it sounds like you're saying that different populations can have different priorities that result in some things that can be deemed better or worse, though that deeming may be subjective, or that that deeming may actually be of value to them, demonstrable through "facts", even if they are more "liberal" than some others. which seems to possibly mean that any one person's judgement is not what "is", but is subjective. i wonder how you, then, know what "is". what if a subjective criterion for judgement results in something dangerous to yourself? could you then judge that criterion as faulty? what if a "liberal" chooses something that benefits you?
Yup, I would agree with that. Different cultures are not only "different", but they can also be "better" or "worse". While that may be a judgement call for an individual to say, the million of people leaving other cultures to come to ours means something. It means maybe they agree with me.

Quote:
personally, i can't really care so much about labels like "liberal" or "conservative". it seems as though people of all ilks can have something to contribute, as well as something i might disagree with. but, that's me.
I've seen very little of liberalism that is worth a darn, but there might be something out there.

Anyway, you are beginning to simply annoy me. You seem to be trying to trap me into saying something or trying to make a point, but while you once had my attention, you no longer do. Bye bye.
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Old 01-02-2008, 07:21 AM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,664,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseba View Post
Others may not, thus the links. I believe we should emulate countries like Sweden et al, because their living standards are quite good, and they have as many freedoms as we do. (for the nay-sayers).
These countries may have sociol freedoms, but very little fiscal freedoms. Fortunately for them, the U.S., with its relative abundance of fiscal freedoms, provides the vast majority of innovations and advancements that allow these other countries to maintain a high standard of living. If a country wants to be considered mediocre, then maybe socialism is the answer.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:41 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,526,017 times
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Seems to me that the Scandinavian countries provide considerable fiscal, social and personal freedom. The socialist state seems to encourage entrepreneurialism by removing the threat of failure from a budding businessman’s family’s health and welfare. Not only that they are provide a very pleasant rate of return on my investment fund.

Personally I would prefer living in a Scandinavian socialist state the rampant militaristic and capitalistic empire we have become. “Freedom and justice for all” my a**.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,159,120 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
i don't know! more just an independent minded person, maybe. is that coloradan??
Apparently. There are a lot more independents here than in other places I've lived. My two kids don't want to identify with any party, they are registered independent. Maybe it's a younger person thing, too. But compared with back east or even Illinois, lots of independents.

I understand your point about the medics, of course that stuff goes on every day. There are a lot of judgement calls in health care.

Back to the topic, I'm not so taken with Europe, especially their educational systems. Each country is different, but most do start some type of tracking of kids at age 10-13, and only the "brightest", as determined at that time, get to go to college. A British friend said England has begun to let the kids make the choice of tracks. In many of those countries, kids on the non-college tracks don't even finish high school as we know it. Most European countries have us beat on health care though. I guess we can all learn from each other.
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Old 01-02-2008, 09:55 AM
 
1,267 posts, read 3,279,535 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunkel25 View Post
I've met a few liberal medics. Just none that I would want working on me.



Then I guess he was a liberal. Too bad. Good thing he had a good imagination.



On the surface, liberal, but at his core, conservative. Yes, he advocated for the poor (which conservatives are not necessarily against...we just don't like charity to be forcibily taken from us in the form of taxes), but in the end, a person is responsible for his actions and has to face the consequences.



Of course that's possible.



Well here's something that is for sure a fact:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...OB_data_US.PNG

Where does everyone want to come to live? The good ol' USofA. They vote with their feet, buddy. Despite all our problems and our obvious racism against anybody not American (), they all want to come here, baby.



Peception is reality? Sorry, bud, reality is reality. And when my perception of something doesn't match with reality, I change my perception, because reality isn't very accomodating.



Yup, I would agree with that. Different cultures are not only "different", but they can also be "better" or "worse". While that may be a judgement call for an individual to say, the million of people leaving other cultures to come to ours means something. It means maybe they agree with me.



I've seen very little of liberalism that is worth a darn, but there might be something out there.

Anyway, you are beginning to simply annoy me. You seem to be trying to trap me into saying something or trying to make a point, but while you once had my attention, you no longer do. Bye bye.
not trying to trap - you're saying what you're saying yourself.

as for "they all want to come here, baby", i think there are some statistics out there that indicate that many of them no longer do want to come here. post 9/11, fewer foreigners that might otherwise have studied here, sought citizenship (much like your ancestors did - i am just guessing you're not native american), and contributed to american ingenuity applied to american universities. this seems this may be due in part to fear of being in a country that it seemed they might not be welcome and in part due to the more challenging visa process.
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