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Old 01-01-2008, 12:47 PM
 
4,410 posts, read 6,126,068 times
Reputation: 2908

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Grass Fever View Post
...very insightful! Unfortunately, there's no money in peace.
Just like there's no greatness in money.
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Old 01-01-2008, 12:48 PM
 
435 posts, read 1,518,688 times
Reputation: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhouse2001 View Post
With the blatantly arrogant tone of some of these arguments, how can we Americans claim to be so great? Such childish bullying immediately eliminates us from the competition unless divisiveness is a quality of 'great' that escaped the dictionary. Is insulting a neighboring country also a trait?
Post where such an insult was made.

[/quote]I never understood why America is in competition with other countries. Are we in competition because of some human need for significance? Or is it because our corporate overlords would get better productivity out of us? Where's the prize for being 'great'? It certainly can't be the world we find ourselves in now.[/quote]

Countires/Tribes/Cultures have competed since the dawn of time. To say otherwise would be to be unimagineably ignorant of history.

Quote:
America is not the greatest country on the planet because we haven't realized any component of greatness as I would define it.
And what otherworldly achievements have you accomplished in your life to be in a position to judge an entire nation's morality?

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Greatness is not defined by the number of weapons, the height of buildings, or the level of luxury. It is not measured by the amount in a bank account, the amount that nature has been tamed, or how many others have bowed down before us.
True.

Quote:
A truly great country would not have homeless people and polluted rivers. It wouldn't employ violence as entertainment or a means to an end. It would embrace peace rather than glorify death and destruction. It would understand real freedom, not some facsimile. It would be inclusive, not exclusive. It would realize it's in the same boat with everyone else, not ignore the cries of those who find themselves in the icy waters.
1)No country has even come remotely close to achieveing the ideals of a non-poor society.

2)As for violence, the world digests American movies/TV/shows like it was going out of style, so obvisouly a market for gore exist outside America. As for violence being a means to an end, would you mean the end to the Nazis, Slavery, Colonialism, Crusades, Napolean, etc? I guess maybe a trip to Normandy (and for that matter, Austwich) is in order.

3) Real Freedom? Would that be 3,000 CCTV cameras in the City of London alone? Would it be passing resoultions on the very future of your country without even a vote (See: EU constitution)? Try that argument again.

4) I would say approcahing racial plurality and welcoming 3 million immigrants a year is plenty "accepting".

5)If we're in the same boat as everyone else, Then we should make damn sure we control the paddles. Oh, but I guess you'd rather we have a consensus instead? Maybe like having Sudan, North Korea and Cuba on a human rights council, correct? Please. I'll tell you what, we'll let you tell America what to do when you let Americans vote in your MPs and Prime Ministers. Hope you like all those new Red Voters.



Quote:
America blindly asserts its greatness probably because it refuses to feel shame for and acknowledge its failures.

The only thing we assert is our right to defend ourselves and our way of life. We feel plenty shame. Too much actually. Maybe instead of living lives haunted by past deeds and petty rivalries, we should instead look towards better futures. But hey, it's all a revenge game, right?

Quote:
It, like all the other countries, neighborhoods, families, and human beings, can only aspire to greatness by accepting the truth.
What? That we're to blame for all the world's problems and deserve to fail? Not even close to the truth.

Quote:
Lashing out in defiance of the truth and in total arrogance doesn't change reality one bit. We have a ways to go before we can achieve true greatness. When realized, "countries" will have been rendered meaningless.
And finally after all this hyperbole, the real agenda comes out. Sing kumbia and eliminate borders/ethnicites/cultures/beliefs. Sorry, but much of that is what defines humanity itself. Go tell the Middle East to change it's culture, see how far you get.


Only the West sees this globalist fantasy. For the rest of the world, language, culture, families, and faith will continue on as they always have and always will. When you find that people are human beings and not drones meant to fit into a "everyone is the same" box, you'll realize how scary and dangerous this view is. Hitler wanted everyone to be the same as well.....
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Old 01-01-2008, 01:00 PM
 
8 posts, read 4,776 times
Reputation: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by briarwood View Post
Only the West sees this globalist fantasy. For the rest of the world, language, culture, families, and faith will continue on as they always have and always will.
So true. Culture is intrinsically human. Our borders define the reach of our culture.
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Old 01-01-2008, 01:06 PM
 
4,410 posts, read 6,126,068 times
Reputation: 2908
Briarwood, so much anger!

You use a history of tribal/cultural 'competition' to justify future competition among nations. You defined it as a revenge game. Sorry, competition in a closed system kills everyone. Greatness would come from realizing competition is futility.

I never even inferred that a single country in any period in history has come close to my ideals of 'greatness'. Nor did I place any blame on America for the failures experienced elsewhere on the globe. You misread the sentence: greatness is achieved by accepting the truth--the truth is a personal revelation and acceptance of one's part in creating reality.

I also didn't ask anyone to change. But if anyone wants to achieve greatness (or any country for that matter), change is essential.

How can you claim I hold a globalist view when I believe countries need not exist? I never wrote "everyone is the same", I wrote that we are all in the same boat. Big difference! Personally, I don't think any group larger than a family has any real significance.

When I talk about real freedom, I'm referring to freedom without fear. Freedom coupled with fear is anything but!

Start over! You really didn't get my drift. But that's OK.
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Old 01-01-2008, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,408 posts, read 7,779,474 times
Reputation: 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by briarwood View Post
Sorry, but much of that is what defines humanity itself. Go tell the Middle East to change it's culture, see how far you get.
Only the West sees this globalist fantasy. For the rest of the world, language, culture, families, and faith will continue on as they always have and always will. When you find that people are human beings and not drones meant to fit into a "everyone is the same" box, you'll realize how scary and dangerous this view is. Hitler wanted everyone to be the same as well.....
Well, I certainly agree with this. Which makes one question the intelligence or realism of trying to establish a United States style of Democracy in Iraq, no?

Our troops have done everything we could ask of them and more to provide peace and stability in the region. They can't make the Iraqi sects all suddenly come together after centuries of hatred and sing kumbaya. People that say we need to stay over there until they do, irregardless of the American lives lost or dollars spent, are not being entirely rational.
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Old 01-01-2008, 01:46 PM
 
7,138 posts, read 14,607,678 times
Reputation: 2397
My utmost and humble thanks to you, my54ford, for your years of service. I, too, served honorably as a vietnam vet. Is just not seemly, is it, to have to witness the unpatriotic diatribe so prevalent today?
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Old 01-01-2008, 01:59 PM
 
435 posts, read 1,518,688 times
Reputation: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhouse2001 View Post
Briarwood, so much anger!
No, just truth.

Quote:
You use a history of tribal/cultural 'competition' to justify future competition among nations. You defined it as a revenge game. Sorry, competition in a closed system kills everyone. Greatness would come from realizing competition is futility.
There's what we want and then there is what is. Do you think I want to die on the battlefield? HELL NO. Unfortunetly, history has shown that as long as people see things for themselves and not others, things will be as they always have been. There's nothing wrong with the globalist/socialist dream on paper, but in the real world, it's sadly beyond our mortal grasp. We live in a world where 14-year old kids shoot up classrooms and jetliners are chrashed into office buildings. It's simply not possible.

I don't know if your Christian, but one of it's basic tenants is the belief we are fallen away from God and therefore are incapable of true peace and love. Hence "Human Nature".

Quote:
I never even inferred that a single country in any period in history has come close to my ideals of 'greatness'. Nor did I place any blame on America for the failures experienced elsewhere on the globe. You misread the sentence: greatness is achieved by accepting the truth--the truth is a personal revelation and acceptance of one's part in creating reality.
Sorry if I seem harsh, but with the sea of Anti-American, Anti-Capitalsim, Anti-Christian garbage that sloshes around this board, it's hard not to get touchy.


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I also didn't ask anyone to change. But if anyone wants to achieve greatness (or any country for that matter), change is essential.
Agreed.

Quote:
How can you claim I hold a globalist view when I believe countries need not exist?
Becuase that is the ultamite liberalesqe view. See John Lennon's "Imagine".

Quote:
I never wrote "everyone is the same", I wrote that we are all in the same boat. Big difference! Personally, I don't think any group larger than a family has any real significance.
On one hand, we're "All in the same boat", and yet in another, no one bigger than family is important? These are two contradictory statements.

But to better address your point: Westerners(Whites?) have done nothing but open their homes and hearts to the world in this "We're all in this together" theme and have got nothing in return. Notice how it's perfectly okay to lecture a young African-American in the ghetto on the importance of "Keeping it real" (Read: Don't act White), yet discouraging your Blonde dautgher from dating the Black basketball captain is the height of racist ingorance. In an ideal world, both examples would be casgated as ignorant. But from where I'm standing, it seems only the western world has to bear this burden.

A truly non-cultural world does not have such rites as "St Patricks Day" or "Kwaanza" or "Rahmahdan". Yet I dare you to go tell your local Iman or Black History professor to abandon such foolishness. See what kind of response you get.

Quote:
When I talk about real freedom, I'm referring to freedom without fear. Freedom coupled with fear is anything but!
Fear is as elemental as life itself. Who's to say we won't encounter a hostile alien life form? Then the debate over "Acceptance" starts all over. We're born with fear for a reason. Dogs that have been with the same owner for 20 years have all of the sudden maulled that same owner. Our saftey and security is in our hands, and fear helps us to harness it.

Quote:
Start over! You really didn't get my drift. But that's OK.
I think I do pretty much get your drift. Everything you write sounds lovely, but none of it is applicable in the real world. Get over it.
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:21 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
8,396 posts, read 9,419,807 times
Reputation: 4070
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
If thats a shot at me....Welll I'll try to think of what good I did my country when I cash my retirement check for 20+ fathiful years in the USN. Yep I still remember that boatload of Viet. refugees I spotted that time. Guess I should have realized how crappy we Americans are and let them die.
Who took a shot at your service?

Who was tossing out shots at peaceful neighbors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford
I think the Rohde Island National Gaurd should come up the and take over Canada We could us it to dump all the spent waste from the Nuk plants we're gonna build I have a great joke about the resulting mix of French and British people but I dont want to get booted
You're mighty sensitive for a guy who likes to talk fast and loose.
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:25 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
8,396 posts, read 9,419,807 times
Reputation: 4070
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilypad View Post
My utmost and humble thanks to you, my54ford, for your years of service. I, too, served honorably as a vietnam vet. Is just not seemly, is it, to have to witness the unpatriotic diatribe so prevalent today?
Well, what do you know, lily? That makes all three of us military vets with honorable service in the Vietnam era.

Have you decided yet if it's still so scary for some of us to have different ideas?
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Old 01-01-2008, 02:27 PM
 
Location: State of Being
35,879 posts, read 77,210,728 times
Reputation: 22751
Default I just gotta say it

I just finished reading this whole thread. And I just gotta say - the only thing Americans have possibly been delusional about is that when we come to the defense of other nations - that they will appreciate our efforts.

I think most of us would be just fine w/ becoming more isolationist. I am frankly quite disturbed over several things . . . illegal immigration . . . and our economy being handed on a silver platter to the Chinese.

As for illegal immigration . . . if this country is so horrible, why are people streaming over our borders? (And if we are so heinous, why don't we just shoot them when they try to sneak in?)

As for our trade deficit w/ China - and the outsourcing of jobs to god only knows what countries . . . it was not on this administration's watch that this happened. (Anyone remember NAFTA?) Oh - yeah - now I remember . . .the global outcry over how Americans were consuming so much and not sharing the wealth and opportunities - so . . . there we went . . . running down a path towards sharing the wealth thru/ trade and manufacturing agreements . . . whose bright idea was that? (Give you a hint - his wife is running for president)

I am not enamored w/ the idea of our being in Iraq. The biggest reason I am disgusted is b/c it seems there is so little appreciation for the sacrifices we have made on the Iraqi's behalf . . .

But back to my opening statement . . . and how Americans are delusional . . . seems we have had a history of going to the aid of the disenfranchised . . . has everyone forgotten Bosnia/Croatia?

Sorry, but the very countries who stand in judgment of us - don't see them doing anything at all to help the disenfranchised. France can't even handle their LEGAL immigrants, it appears. And look at Germany since unification - one social problem after another.

Yeah, we are delusional here. That is why we got into WWI and then WWII . . . and btw - we still have 30-some-thousand, I believe, troops on the Korean DMZ, protecting yet another country's ungrateful A$$.

As for Canada . . .I cannot even think of anything to say in regard to their humanitarian efforts. Oh, yeah, they take in immigrants and our Draft Dodgers . . . and their factory waste drifts down and causes acid rain here in the States. Let's see . . .what else . . . (I am sure I can say something else positive) . . . ummmmmm. . .those mounties sure have cute outfits.
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