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Old 01-01-2008, 03:40 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,159,747 times
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I figured I would toss this out here because there seems to be many misconceptions and predisposed notions of what neocons are.

They are a group of people who have a legitimate perspective and view. They are not demons, or code words for Jews or Israeli supporters, or some secret cabal of the great right wing conspiracy. They are merely people with a n objective that also have certain qualities or traits.

They wish to promote or progress America and its views into a position of power across the globe through preemptive means. Sometimes through policy, often through the use of military. I don't even disagree with all their ideas, but I certainly disagree with their methodology. In general they are always pro-war but that doesn't mean everyone who is pro-war is a neoconservative.

I get this feeling that many in Republican circles cringe at being called neocons much like the right demonized the term "liberal" in politics. Ten years ago, many people stood up and proudly proclaimed their liberal leanings but over the past few years, people have used this description as though it were a new form of herpes instead of a legitimate political viewpoint. Oddly enough, one of the traits of neoconservatism is a liberal or expansionist foreign policy.

One of the first things that must be done in order to attack a political point of view or agenda, is to label or categorize it. Much like the process of dehumanization that takes place on battlefields in order to help young soldiers better cope with killing other human beings (always easier to kill a Kra*t, or sl*pe, or a hagi, raghe*d, etc...) than it is to kill a person. Same holds true in politics. Once a definition is associated with a negative connotation it become sheik and easy to attack, often with little understanding of what it is they are attacking or defending.
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:43 PM
LM1
 
Location: NEFL/Chi, IL
833 posts, read 992,995 times
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The definitions of what it means to be a "Democrat" and what it means to be a "Republican"- and even to a lesser extent, what it means to be a "Liberal" or a "Conservative"- are rapidly changing in America.

It's the classic re-segmenting of the vote that happens every few decades or so... When "Southern Democrats" became Republicans, when Blacks went from being Republicans to Democrats, when large segments of traditionally "liberal" Jews bought into the Republicans Israel play... When large swaths of Conservatives became disgruntled and now vote Libertarian...

Right now, Hispanics are presently the golden children of the political world... Whoever can sew them up like Lyndon ‘I'll have them n|ggers voting Democratic for two hundred years' Johnson sewed up blacks will be the winner for a long, long time to come. It's why "immigration reform" is and always will be hot air and bluster until Hispanics are firmly cemented into one corner or the other.


Last edited by LM1; 01-01-2008 at 03:54 PM..
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:28 PM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,406,452 times
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Well, it isn't too much trouble to figure out which way the "golden children" are going to be leaning so long as the right-wing is weighted down with the "No Amnesty - Deport Them All" crowd. Until some Republicans find the backbone to stand up to these yahoos and tell them that they can just go ahead and overload the fax and voice-mail systems and it's all just plain too bad for them, the Democrats appear likely to be running up sizable pluralities among Hispanic voters...
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Old 01-01-2008, 05:00 PM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,406,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
I get this feeling that many in Republican circles cringe at being called neocons much like the right demonized the term "liberal" in politics. Ten years ago, many people stood up and proudly proclaimed their liberal leanings but over the past few years, people have used this description as though it were a new form of herpes instead of a legitimate political viewpoint.
Might have been more than ten years, as the "tax and spend liberal" mantra had been spun around for a while already by early 1998. The best spin you can put on all this is probably the word framing, but the more apt word might be brainwashing. Lather, rinse, and repeat and repeat and repeat. People today believe all sorts of things that have no foundation in fact. Too many behave too much like bots with no particularly sophisticated software running them. Did that happen by accident? No, the right-wing, borrowing its tactics from the fundie theists who had in turn borrowed them from the tobacco companies, deliberately set out over the course of about twenty years to construct a disinformation media that would be capable of drowning out rational media and controlling the thoughts, and therefore the votes, of those on the downscale end of the political sophistication scale. In the end, this effort was successful at levels beyond those that anyone might have predicted. You can see the results everywhere. Fortunately in some ways, the neocons became so full of themselves as to believe they could simply do anything and get away with it. So now they've managed to tick off a large segment of the base and made it possible for out of the mainstream quacks like Mike Huckabee and Ron Paul to be taken as a serious people. With any luck, the neocons will be so thoroughly trashed in November as to be wiped off the political map for a few decades, making closet neocon a death sentence for anyone running from the right. The irony of it all to me is that the kicker turned out to be immigration, the one place where neocon ideas actually made some sense. All those years of shunning reason, and the one time they make some concessions to it...boom...it all blows up in their faces. Couldn't happen to a nicer group of guys...and gals...
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Old 01-01-2008, 05:05 PM
 
17,290 posts, read 29,328,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Well, it isn't too much trouble to figure out which way the "golden children" are going to be leaning so long as the right-wing is weighted down with the "No Amnesty - Deport Them All" crowd. Until some Republicans find the backbone to stand up to these yahoos and tell them that they can just go ahead and overload the fax and voice-mail systems and it's all just plain too bad for them, the Democrats appear likely to be running up sizable pluralities among Hispanic voters...
Please please please don't lump all "Hispanic" voters together.

Maybe "Mexican" and voters representing nationalities with large illegal immigrants lean a certain way, but I assure you that it is NOT the case amongst all "Hispanics." It's kind of why the Democrats only run "pluralities" and not "solid majorities."



PS: I agree with the rest of TNHilltopper's post. Neo-cons use "liberal" as a substitute for an argument.

I'm a democrat and believe the Democrats NOT taking a firmer stand will hurt them with independents and moderates, who represent MUCH larger percentages of voters than "a plurality of pro-illegal immigration Hispanics."
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Old 01-01-2008, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
14,044 posts, read 27,145,312 times
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I remember reading a series of articles by Ben Wattenberg, and seeing him on TV, discussing the problem associated with the "liberal" label. This was back when I lived in Northern Virginia, so it would have been over 15 years ago.

I think the neocon label was established as a negative term to counteract this liberal label stigma. Seems to be pretty effective too, in helping splinter up the Republican base.
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Old 01-01-2008, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Journey's End
10,203 posts, read 27,071,394 times
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TriMT7, how do you see Hispanic or Latino/a votes going. All the folks I know, with the exception of a few Cubans, vote or talk Democratic. In NYC, with a very diversified population, I'd reckon as many as 85% vote straight party line.

And as for labels, well, I do have them in some clothes, like a new vest, or jacket, but generally I avoid them


Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Please please please don't lump all "Hispanic" voters together.

Maybe "Mexican" and voters representing nationalities with large illegal immigrants lean a certain way, but I assure you that it is NOT the case amongst all "Hispanics." It's kind of why the Democrats only run "pluralities" and not "solid majorities."



PS: I agree with the rest of TNHilltopper's post. Neo-cons use "liberal" as a substitute for an argument.

I'm a democrat and believe the Democrats NOT taking a firmer stand will hurt them with independents and moderates, who represent MUCH larger percentages of voters than "a plurality of pro-illegal immigration Hispanics."
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Old 01-01-2008, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Arizona
5,408 posts, read 7,779,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Please please please don't lump all "Hispanic" voters together.

Maybe "Mexican" and voters representing nationalities with large illegal immigrants lean a certain way, but I assure you that it is NOT the case amongst all "Hispanics." It's kind of why the Democrats only run "pluralities" and not "solid majorities."



PS: I agree with the rest of TNHilltopper's post. Neo-cons use "liberal" as a substitute for an argument.

I'm a democrat and believe the Democrats NOT taking a firmer stand will hurt them with independents and moderates, who represent MUCH larger percentages of voters than "a plurality of pro-illegal immigration Hispanics."

Actually... according to political surveys - the majority of all legal Hispanic voters are trending Democratic again. Does not matter if they come from a nationality representing "large illegal populations" or not.

People have basic pride, and many Puerto Ricans, Cubans and others are finding they are being treated as if they are second class citizens due solely to their race or because they speak Spanish. They don't like it.

Because of this, the Iraq War, and the fact the Republican party continues to pander to its traditional voting bloc to the exclusion of Hispanics in general, the gains Bush made in the last election are all being lost. The Republicans are shooting themselves in the foot in the long term.
I think most Hispanics do not confuse a comprehensive immigration solution with a "pro-illegal" position.
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Old 01-01-2008, 05:43 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,159,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Might have been more than ten years, as the "tax and spend liberal" mantra had been spun around for a while already by early 1998. The best spin you can put on all this is probably the word framing, but the more apt word might be brainwashing.

With any luck, the neocons will be so thoroughly trashed in November as to be wiped off the political map for a few decades, making closet neocon a death sentence for anyone running from the right. The irony of it all to me is that the kicker turned out to be immigration, the one place where neocon ideas actually made some sense. All those years of shunning reason, and the one time they make some concessions to it...boom...it all blows up in their faces. Couldn't happen to a nicer group of guys...and gals...
Tax and spend liberals or borrow and spend Republicans, both didn't seem to be directed at attacking Liberalism or Conservatism but more specifically, segments within the respected parties. Today it seems that the entire ideologies are attacked, where once they were merely argued.

I recently was reading a piece that talked about how the Trotskyist fathers of the neoconservative movement decided to chime in on the Republican side of the aisle for two reasons in particular. One being that the right was generally more associated with the military, and the other being its appeal to the religious right as a means to pick up foot soldiers (for lack of a better description) both reasons fitting in well with an authoritarian manner of structure.

In any case, it would seem that the latest sister golden hair of the neoconservatives is Hillary Clinton herself, if one were to judge the praise heaped upon her by the godfathers of the neoconservatives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToCA View Post
I remember reading a series of articles by Ben Wattenberg, and seeing him on TV, discussing the problem associated with the "liberal" label. This was back when I lived in Northern Virginia, so it would have been over 15 years ago.

I think the neocon label was established as a negative term to counteract this liberal label stigma. Seems to be pretty effective too, in helping splinter up the Republican base.
Well the term "neocon" may certainly have been, which is why I prefer to use neoconservative which I believe to be the proper or at least respectful use. Neoconservatives have so accepted the label themselves and even William and Irving Kristol as well as Norman Podorhertz have used this term to describe others in their own movement.

I have heard arguments such as Silas the other day mention the whole bit about being code word for Jewish/Israeli sympathizer and as you mentioned, a term meant to splinter the Republican base. I personally feel these arguments are meant to deflect criticism from their actions or agenda, which they proudly tout to one another but condemn from outside the circle.

To be quite honest, even though they call themselves neoconservatives, I don't believe them to be "Republicans" or Democrats but a party or ideology unto themselves that happened to associate themselves with a particular party as a means to gain power or favor. They could just as easy be the MLP (militant liberal party)
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Old 01-01-2008, 05:44 PM
 
1,080 posts, read 1,708,287 times
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First of all, minorities are firmly in the Democrat corner because the Democrats realized that they can play on their fears of oppression to get votes. They don't actually have to do anything about it or actually improve their lot in life any, as long as they convince XYZ group that they care about them.

Second, neocon is a dirty word. I don't know who started it, but it's a dirty word whoever is saying it now. As is "RINO"...Republican in Name Only. Means basically the same thing. It's just an indication about how far lost this country is when certain people are perceived as conservative when those same people would be raging, lunatic fringe lefties just 20 years ago.
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