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Devaluing the dollar is irrelevant. Like I said, money is just a point system The dollar is devalued every year. Why are all governments devaluing their currency?
They are devaluing the currency because people want more **** and dont want to pay for it.
if it was so irrelant, then why the demand to raise minimum wage? Why are people working more and bringing home less?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
(Hint: they target 2% inflation for a reason)
They target inflation so they can continue to create more debt, but when the international community doesnt keep up with that growth, (or we dont for that matter), then this pushes jobs overseas to where its cheaper, thus lowering the revenues and increasing the deficit.
if jobs were coming here, we would be generating more money, and thus a surplus, which would NOT tank the economy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Personal incredulity Declaring something not true because it is difficult for you to understand.
Oh trust me, I do undrstand how asinine your statements are that a strong economy which generates surpluses to the government is a sign of a bad economy..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
You have listed numerous countries that found it in their interest to declare bankruptcy. It doesn't mean it is necessary or required. The countries that get "forced" into bankruptcy only do so by owing significant amounts of their nation's assets in a foreign currency. The United States does not fit that discription.
You dont even know the difference between an asset vs debt.
They go into bankruptcy becasause of liabilities, not due to assets.
Please cite for me those countries which voluntarily went bankrupt but didnt have to..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Collecting revenue has no bearing on a government's ability to issue currency. As stated in the OP, taxation does not fund government spending for a monetary sovereign government.
That wasnt the discussion, the discussion was surpluses..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Incorrect. The government buys its own debt all the time. It doesn't cost taxpayers anything.
They do so because those other departments have surpluses.. Thats the only way its possible. Clinton borrowed hundreds of billions from the government and then proclaimed he had a surplus, despite the government now owing those hundreds of billions back to individiual departments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Of course it can.
Please.. tell us the last time a SS Check bounced.
The SS trust fund is owed trillions of dollars, and continue to receive revenues from taxpayers.
Which you have distorted and misrepresented to mislead and deceive others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
So right away you admit monetary sovereignty...
I admit you have no understanding of monetary sovereignty.
I admit that you're throwing the term around to mislead and deceive others.
Certain powers and functions are inherent to the State. The State has the inherent power to establish laws, courts, a system of justice, a military, enter into agreements with other States and so on. Logically, then, it follows the State can issue its own currency.
What is so special or extraordinary about monetary sovereignty?
You act like the Monetary Sovereignty Goddess, clad in the most shimmering silk, descends from the heavens and bestows this special privilege upon a State.
A State has military sovereignty, legal sovereignty, judicial sovereignty, educational sovereignty, religious sovereignty, language sovereignty, fiscal sovereignty, etc etc etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Actually it is relevant to the discussion. Monetary sovereignty is the foundation of modern economics. Monetary sovereign nations do not follow the same economic conventions as households, yet the comparison is constantly made. That is the point of the thread.
No, it is not useless. That is the basis for the whole discussion. A government is not analogous to a business or household.
It is a valid analogy.
Here's a list of monetarily sovereign States that you claim cannot go bankrupt that actually went bankrupt:
To prove how wrong you are, note that the number next to each monetarily sovereign State is the number of times they went bankrupt.
Romania -- a monetarily sovereign State that issues the Lei as currency -- has gone bankrupt 5 times in the last 40 years.
Your claim is refuted by facts.
Get over it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
All 50 States and Commonwealths have voluntarily agreed to surrender monetary sovereignty as a member of this federal republic in accordance with the US Constitution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
...and?
It proves you do not understand the powers inherent to the State.
It also proves you have no understanding of the US Constitution, or concepts of political science, such as federations.
Diplomatic sovereignty is an inherent power of the State, just like monetary sovereignty. The 50 States and Commonwealths have agree to surrender diplomatic sovereignty to the federal government, under the US Constitution.
The Critical Thinker will now ask why the Senate have exclusive power over treaties.
Here are the dots to connect....
1] diplomatic sovereignty is an inherent State power;
2] the Senate consists of two senators from each State/Commonwealth;
3] each State/Commonwealth is therefore equally represented in the Senate;
4] prior to a constitutional amendment, the States/Commonwealths appointed Senators directly.
See?
There is a trade-off here: the States/Commonwealths traded diplomatic sovereignty for the right to exercise control over treaties that are ratified/rejected, and provide input into treaties. Note that the Senate also confirms or rejects the appoints of ambassador and other diplomatic officers to foreign States.
So....how stupid is it let the People elect senators and then whine about NAFTA and TPP et al?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Actually no. The problem with Greece was ceding its most powerful asset, it's monetary sovereignty. Greece's insolvency is a result of adopting the Euro, a currency which it cannot create at will.
Actually, yes. If Greece would be monetarily sovereign now, it would be on the list of monetarily sovereign States that went bankrupt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
The Fallacy Fallcy presuming that because a claim has been poorly argued, or a fallacy has been made, that the claim itself must be wrong.
The date of Nixon's announcment of the end of Bretton-Woods vs. the Legal Date is of no consequence to the discussion.
Yes, it demonstrates that you are uneducated and ill-informed, with no understanding of the subject matter.
Any fool can shout "Bretton-Woods" and "monetary sovereignty" on an internet forum, but they that doesn't mean they have a clue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
How can the US devalue the US Dollar to $42/ounce in February 1973 if the US is still not on the Gold Standard?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
.....because the Gold Standard suggests our economy is based on a fixed quantity of gold, which it isn't.
See, you couldn't even answer a simple question correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
And, really, "...full faith and credit..." is nothing more than words on a piece of paper carrying the same weight as "...till death do us part..."
Also, your grotesque misrepresentation of the "Full Faith & Credit" Clause is intolerable.
For those who want the Truth, see Article IV Section I of the US Constitution...
Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.
As everyone now can plainly see, the Full Faith & Credit Clause applies only to actions between and amongst US States, and not foreign States.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
We established this already in the OP.
That's nice, but the "full faith and credit" presented in the OP reflects the debt definition, which simply means the U.S. will agree to legally service (i.e. issue currency to pay) its debt obligations.
Proof Surrogate Substituting a distracting comment for a real proof.
There is no "debt definition"...that's just more misleading misrepresentations you have made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Yes, which is not a constraint to the ability of the United States government to issue more currency.
Suppressed Evidence Intentionally failing to use information suspected of being relevant and significant is committing the fallacy of suppressed evidence. This fallacy usually occurs when the information counts against one’s own conclusion.
There are negative consequences for issuing more currency.
You have deceitfully withheld that fact from people, and dismissed the negative consequences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
No, a decline in energy prices decreases the cost of producing goods.
Equivocation Equivocation is the illegitimate switching of the meaning of a term during the reasoning.
The price of oil has no bearing on the price of electricity in the US, since the US does not use oil to produce electricity.
Oil is used for transportation purpose, but I'm not seeing $1.70/gallon for diesel fuel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
That is factually incorrect, not to mention legally wrong under International Law.
It is the creditors who define "default"; not you; and not the US government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
The creditors do not have any control over the U.S.'s ability to issue currency.
That is another deceitful misrepresentation.
Creditors are not necessarily obligated to accept US Dollars. The US Dollar might be legal tender in the US, but not in the rest of the World.
Israel demands the US make payments in Euros.
That's an added expense to US taxpayers, who must bear the cost of currency conversion.
There won't be a next-generation anything technology-wise if no one accepts US Dollars in payment for the commodities, parts, semi-finished products or finished products you need to import.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
No, they have not. You're picking piecemeal semantic arguments while acknowledging that monetary sovereignty is the basis for modern economics.
I never made such an acknowledgement, but thanks for lying.
Every State that has ever existed on this Earth has been monetarily sovereign. What of it?
And as I have proven beyond any reasonable doubt, monetary sovereignty does not preclude the possibility of a State becoming insolvent/bankrupt, in spite of your deceitful protestations.
Burying....
Congress can in essence create money via the Treasury and deficit spending.
Coinage is part of the Executive/Treasury.
The Fed can of course create money from thin air.
Most of our money is created via the private banks and lending.
We 'borrow' money and create money debt vs creating the money de novo due to our laws.
Please show the statute where it states CONgress can create money.
Or that the "FED" (Federal Reserve) creates money.
I may have missed it.
Money Reference:
Article 1, Section 8. U.S. Constitution.
The Congress shall have Power
...To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
...To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
Article 1, Section 10. U.S. Constitution
No State shall ... coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any ... Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, ...
Note: only gold and silver coin PAY DEBT. And if Congress had the power to create money, it wouldn't need the power to borrow it. Congress can only coin money (stamp bullion).
REAL MONEY - Money which has real metallic, intrinsic value as distinguished from paper currency, checks and drafts.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1264
MONEY - In usual and ordinary acceptation it means coins and paper currency used as a circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace notes, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate. Lane v. Railey, 280 Ky. 319, 133 S.W. 2d 74, 79, 81.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1005
NOTE - An instrument containing an express and absolute promise of signer (i.e. maker) to pay to a specified person or order, or bearer, a definite sum of money at a specified time. An instrument that is a promise to pay other than a certificate of deposit. U.C.C. 3-104(2)(d)
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1060
TENDER - An offer of money ... Legal tender is that kind of coin, money, or circulating medium which the law compels a creditor to accept in payment of his debt, when tendered by the debtor in the right amount.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1467
[Note: FRNS are NOT MONEY, by law. FRNs are legal tender on the obligated party of those notes - the Federal government. . . AND the 315 million enumerated socialists.]
"Federal reserve notes are legal tender in absence of objection thereto."
MacLeod v. Hoover (1925) 159 La 244, 105 So. 305
All duly enumerated American socialists cannot object to the tender of the notes that THEY are obligated parties to. (thanks to FICA)
Isn't it curious that politicians fail to mention that FICA is 100% voluntary? And that if enough Americans withdrew from FICA, the note based currency system would collapse?
Billionaires become zero-aires.
OOPS.
For those who dont think the US can go bankrupt, why does the left shout..
"we're going to default and go bankrupt"
everytime government is shut down.....
Of course thats nonsense, since the government still continues to receive revenues during a shut down, and there is sufficient enough money to cover the current obligations...
But the left wing has never been motivated by facts.. Their all emotion, if they lie to their public, the stupid will be outraged.. Look at ACA as another example, or the fear mongering against the old, women, blacks etc..
Left non stop divides this country and takes their base for stupidity that they are.
Please show the statute where it states CONgress can create money.
Or that the "FED" (Federal Reserve) creates money.
I may have missed it.
Congress creates laws and programs that require funding. And if beyond the reach of collected taxes, it is then deficit spending. So The Treasury does its thing and raises the scores of the respective bank accounts.
The Fed creates money out of thin air for direct exchange for like debt assets with member banks. i.e. QE.
Congress doesnt create money of course, they only authorize the issuing of new debt.
These people never know what they are talking about, ironically they are always lefties.
I corrected myself.
Many might propose that we eliminate the Fed and have our elected representatives create our money directly. Of course such foolish thinking would only be coming from right sided wing nuts!
No, if that were true.. Social Security checks would be bouncing.
People file bankruptcy, but their rent checks don't bounce. Neither does the check to their bankruptcy attorney.
Once again, you've deceived and misled people.
To be insolvent/bankrupt means to owe more money than you could possibly repay.
The OASI and OADI Trust Funds are insolvent.
The future liabilities for both Trust Funds -- what must be paid to beneficiaries now and in the future -- is greater than what the Social Security Administration or the government could ever pay. Therefore it is insolvent.
The ability of the US government to print more money, does not alter the fact that it is insolvent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
The United States issues currency by "paying debts." I explained this already. Money is created as a debt. The United States is monetarily sovereign. The United States can issue its own currency at will to "pay debts."
Again, you're deceiving and misleading people.
And I'll prove it right here and now.
Government starts printing money to the point Monetary Inflation becomes 100% annually. Angie has a job paying $16.00/hour.
What happens to Angie's wages? They increase 100%.
Angie now makes $32.00/hour.
How much is Angie paying in FICA payroll tax?
Oooops.....
$16.00 * 40 * 6.2% = $39.68 per week in FICA payroll taxes
$32.00 * 40 * 6.2% = $79.36 per week in FICA payroll taxes
And the year after that....
$64.00 * 40 * 6.2% = $158.72 per week in FICA payroll taxes.
We use the national average wage indexing series to index the earnings of individuals for benefit computation purposes. We also use the series to index several amounts that are important to the operation of Social Security's Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability program.
The government printing more money causes Monetary Inflation.
Monetary Inflation inflates the prices of everything, as in every "thing," as in every single freaking thing, including wages/salaries.
Higher wages/salaries means workers will receive more in OASI benefits in the Future, not less.
The problem of insolvency still exists.
I just trashed your entire thread.
Not only is this a problem for Social Security, but what happens to government employee and private pension plans?
Oh, they get inflated as well, that means those pension plans cost more, not less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
I'm trying to save $2,300 to buy a Fender Telecaster, and the government keeps taking my money through taxes and using it to buy beer and lotto tickets for Welfare Pukes.
When you pay Property Taxes, where does that money go?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Your state, city, and county are not monetarily non-sovereign. The distinction was made clearly in the OP.
Avoiding the Question The fallacy of avoiding the question is a type of fallacy of avoiding the issue that occurs when the issue is how to answer some question. The fallacy occurs when someone’s answer doesn’t really respond to the question asked.
You failed to answer the question.
Where does tax money go, regardless of the level of government collecting the taxes?
You cannot answer the question correctly without destroying your own premise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
It just disappears into thin air (whence it came)?
Taxing does not destroy currency. The only thing taxing does is re-direct where money is spent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
No, taxing is just the Fed accountants pressing delete on their computer screen.
Yes, money is created in thin air. More specifically, on the computer.
That's obtuse.
Not to mention anachronistic....
In 1994, the Federal Reserve mandated that all ACH payment files would have to be deposited electronically and all output files would be delivered electronically.
So.....what happened before 1994?
Oooops...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
No, the government doesn't take anything tangible out of your pocket.
Straw Man Your reasoning contains the straw man fallacy whenever you attribute an easily refuted position to your opponent, one that the opponent wouldn’t endorse, and then proceed to attack the easily refuted position (the straw man) believing you have undermined the opponent’s actual position.
Your silliness does not alter the reality that I'm short $2,300.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Of course it is. The U.S. has been "insolvent" according to the definition of deficit hawks for... about 200 years. However, all U.S. government agencies continue to get funded on time and in full.
No, it is irrelevant, and it sad that you have to resort to the abuse of words and prejudicial language.
When GDP is $5 TRILLION and the federal debt is $1 TRILLION, there is a reasonable presumption that action may be taken without causing economic harm to pay off that $1 TRILLION.
If GDP is $5 TRILLION and federal debt is $15 TRILLION, there is no reasonable presumption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
..and now we are going to go on another typical Mircea wall of semantic arguments. Public Debt, Government Debt, National Debt... the terms are used interchangebale to say the same things in the purpose of these discussions.
It's wrong. Which part of "it's wrong" do you not understand?
Maybe you worship Josef Göbbels, but I do not.
The false issue of "national debt" often surfaces during discussion of secession.
There is no "national debt." It is a federal debt. To continue using the wrong terminology -- which is what Göbbels suggested -- is wrong and it is misleading and deceptive. "National debt" implies the States are obligated, when in fact they are not.
As you pointed out....the federal government is monetarily sovereign, but the States are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
No, it is not like a credit card. If you want to use that analogy, it would be like having a credit card that accepts your handwritten I.O.U.
Yes, it is like a credit card.
There are two types of debt: collateralized and non-collateralized.
US treasury securities are not collateralized. When a domestic or foreign entity buys treasury notes or bonds, they do not hold the title to land the US, or any other assets for that matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
There is no law, and I never said it is a requirement. We are not a closed system. The Foreign Sector balance can indeed be zero.
Once again, you deceive people by withholding information.
The government packages the quarterly deficits as treasury securities. If foreign entities do not buy them, then who will?
You're dependent on domestic entities to buy them, and if they cannot, then you have Monetary Inflation, and there are negative consequences, which you keep hiding from everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
None.....and that's where you fail massively.
That also applies to the Private Sector. There is no law that compels or obligates any US bank, pension fund manager, State/Commonwealth, county, city or other municipality, or any person to purchase US Treasury securities.
And when they stop purchasing those securities? What happens then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
.....the Government buys them.
And that generates Monetary Inflation, and there are negative consequences, which you keep hiding from everyone.
Laughing at the superior intellect...
Mircea
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