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Old 11-18-2014, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,329,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Sure it is. You keep thinking that like a good little corporate citizen. I mean hey, its GOOD that the government subsidizes the minimum wage folks, yup, thats just good business!
The government also subsidizes illegals and the middle class as well.
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Old 11-18-2014, 04:23 PM
 
34,274 posts, read 19,316,264 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
The government also subsidizes illegals and the middle class as well.
Uh huh. Got news for you, the middle class is the LEAST subsidized.

As for illegals, prove it. Seriously should be easy right? I mean they're all getting welfare right....except they aren't, only American citizens are eligible.
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Old 11-18-2014, 04:28 PM
 
9,470 posts, read 6,955,048 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Sure it is. You keep thinking that like a good little corporate citizen. I mean hey, its GOOD that the government subsidizes the minimum wage folks, yup, thats just good business!
How is it you can never actually find an argument to make?

We have automated our production of essentials to the point where anyone earning $5/hr should live like a king. But they can't. Why? Solely due to the costs imposed on the basics of life by government.

Government consumes ever larger shares of our wealth, and uses it to INCREASE THE COST OF LIVING MORE.

And your solution is to raise the dollar prices while simultaneously reducing the wealth produced.

The stupidity of that is just mind-boggling.
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Old 11-18-2014, 04:30 PM
 
9,470 posts, read 6,955,048 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Uh huh. Got news for you, the middle class is the LEAST subsidized.

As for illegals, prove it. Seriously should be easy right? I mean they're all getting welfare right....except they aren't, only American citizens are eligible.
You should try getting into the real world.

Not only do they get welfare, they cheat to get more than normal share.
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Old 11-18-2014, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,329,907 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Uh huh. Got news for you, the middle class is the LEAST subsidized.

As for illegals, prove it. Seriously should be easy right? I mean they're all getting welfare right....except they aren't, only American citizens are eligible.
Actually welfare is 2 parts..a state part and a fed part.

One anchor baby and they qualify for both.
And some states have expanded their welfare to include illegals at the state expense.

Maine is one example. The new governor wants the state's portion of welfare benefits aligned with Fed rules..that is no welfare for illegals.
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Old 11-18-2014, 04:56 PM
 
34,274 posts, read 19,316,264 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Actually welfare is 2 parts..a state part and a fed part.

One anchor baby and they qualify for both.
And some states have expanded their welfare to include illegals at the state expense.

Maine is one example. The new governor wants the state's portion of welfare benefits aligned with Fed rules..that is no welfare for illegals.
Generally we discuss federal issues here not individual states. The people in those states make that decision. In the case of Maine, I am on board with excluding illegals, not as sure about excluding asylum seekers for example.

And the anchor baby qualifies, they do not.

I know, theres some assumption that since I am in favor of a good safety net that I have this soft spot for illegals. Thats a incorrect assumption. I'm from Oregon, we just voted for democrats overwhelmingly....and 2-1 against giving illegals licenses to drive.
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Old 11-18-2014, 08:15 PM
 
9,763 posts, read 10,511,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
Focusing here. I like your village example, but it's much simpler than that if one simply recognizes that human behavior, particularly in regards to energy, is as predictable and immutable as any physical law of the universe. Since human behavior is the foundation and driver of economics, the laws of economics become similarly predictable and immutable.

An airplane does not repeal the Law of Gravity, it simply acts against it in a predictable way that allows faster travel. Turn of the engines at 35,000 feet, and it will not take too long to understand that gravity never went anywhere.

Loving and wanting to protect your child by placing plastic covers over your electrical outlets repeals none of the laws of electromagnetism. Let the child pry the cover off with some metal scissors and then jam those scissors into the light socket for a reminder of the law going nowhere.

There are tons of examples of how the natural world doesn't much care how humans feel, and refuses to repeal its laws to please us. Economics is just one set of laws that simply does not care, and can seem quite cruel in that lack of caring, but it's no more cruel than gravity, electromagnetism, or trigonometry.

Supply & demand is immutable. It can be acted against same as gravity, but it doesn't go away. Minimum wage laws act against Supply & Demand, period. If both the supply of workers and demand for that work stays the same, the price should not move. If the supply of workers goes up, and demand stays the same (as in giving amnesty to a bunch of un/low skilled workers with executive order amnesty, for instance), price (wage) should go down. Minimum wage law opposes this by applying opposing force to the natural direction of price.

What ends up happening is that demand for the product in question goes down. This is manifested with fewer employees, fewer hours, etc. If the employer does not wish to lower demand, they raise their prices to compensate, which simply shifts the supply demand curve to a profitability graph that fits, but now the purchasing power relative to their product has gone down, making every currency unit worth less measured against what they sell. Simultaneously, the demand for their product goes down, since price increases on products the government isn't forcing you to buy result in lower demand.

For more on this, see "rise of Internet retail" and "why US companies lower cost by moving manufacture to the 2nd/3rd world countries the product's market is in, to save on both labor and transportation costs."

Capital always, now and forever, until the stars burn out....will follow the path of least resistance, same as any other form of energy. Over time, you will see that supply & demand never went anywhere and was working just fine.
You're seriously comparing a social science with physical science? That's laughable. You do realize that, in science, a "law" is something that can be described mathematically? It doesn't mean that something is immutable. Price, as it relates to supply and demand is not immutable by any stretch of the imagination. Look up fine wines and pricing strategies. For that matter, see a command economy, or Nixon's price freeze.
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Old 11-18-2014, 08:20 PM
 
9,470 posts, read 6,955,048 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
You're seriously comparing a social science with physical science? That's laughable. You do realize that, in science, a "law" is something that can be described mathematically? It doesn't mean that something is immutable. Price, as it relates to supply and demand is not immutable by any stretch of the imagination. Look up fine wines and pricing strategies. For that matter, see a command economy, or Nixon's price freeze.
Look up "regulations on producing, shipping, selling, distributing, and buying" wine.

Note that it is one of the furthest things from a free market.
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Old 11-18-2014, 08:30 PM
 
9,763 posts, read 10,511,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnwmdk View Post
Look up "regulations on producing, shipping, selling, distributing, and buying" wine.

Note that it is one of the furthest things from a free market.
Excuse me? Your post is irrelevant to the claim that supply, demand and subsequent pricing are immutable. They aren't, and your post doesn't even address the subject.
Fyi: some wines sell more units when price goes up. This is the opposite of what one claimed as being "immutable."

Last edited by nvxplorer; 11-18-2014 at 08:47 PM..
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Old 11-19-2014, 07:53 AM
 
13,853 posts, read 5,564,410 times
Reputation: 8534
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
You're seriously comparing a social science with physical science? That's laughable. You do realize that, in science, a "law" is something that can be described mathematically?
Supply & Demand is best explained mathematically, using this mathematical thing called "a graph"



Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
It doesn't mean that something is immutable. Price, as it relates to supply and demand is not immutable by any stretch of the imagination. Look up fine wines and pricing strategies. For that matter, see a command economy, or Nixon's price freeze.
Every example you find, there will be an exterior force being applied to natural supply & demand trying in order to deny it's natural tendency. Take the opposing force away, or give capital a path of less resistance, and you'll see time and time again that S&D went nowhere, was always right there, and is working just as immutably as always.

Pricing strategies, command economies, Nixon price freezes, etc all illustrate this quite well. Command economies are the easiest because in virtually every command economy in history, one of the first things that pops up is black/grey markets, which is capital finding the path of least resistance, and supply and demand working naturally to get around the external force opposing it. Command economies only work by maintaining that external force and in every case in history, increasing it over time as supply and demand continues to erode the commander's power.

And when I say immutable, it is figurative, as in historically so predictable it may as well be a physical law. I realize social sciences are not physical, but Supply & Demand has indeed been so tried, true and predictable throughout history that it might as well be gravity for how easily one can predict what comes next.
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