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View Poll Results: Should every child be guaranteed a college education at government expense?
Yes 32 30.19%
No 74 69.81%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-04-2008, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,264,523 times
Reputation: 15285

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Quote:
Originally Posted by yakijy View Post
Please spare us your self-righteous diatribes, and try to stay in the current reality - which is that Americans are being left behind on the world stage, in technology and sciences. The way to remedy that is to help American youth get thru college without getting sidetracked for years working at fast food restaurants. You are not the only one who worked thru college, I did as well. What do you want - a medal? There are plenty of others who would have gone thru college if the cost wasn't so prohibitive.
America's deficiencies in the area of science and technology (which are highly debatable; care to provide some definitions or evidence?) have nothing to do with whether college-age people work in fast-food restaurants or not. After all, where is it written that one must complete university in four years or less? What is magical about that number? Far better to take a few extra years, gaining exeprience and maturity, and completing one's undergraduate studies with a real appreciation for sacrifice and budgeting one's time and money. Give me a 27-year old with a BA who has had enough of putting pickles on buns, over a 22-year old who thinks the world owes her a living, any day.
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Old 01-04-2008, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Journey's End
10,203 posts, read 27,071,394 times
Reputation: 3946
I do agree that there is no ideal college student. All three of my own children took breaks from college, worked, played, traveled, all with their own funds, and went back to undergraduate school and with more time off to explore their interests and strengths, all went on to get graduate degrees (M.D., Ph.D. and MS).

They are all doing better in life than if they had been spoon-fed through 4-years of consecutive school with the assistance of my whips and chains.
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Old 01-04-2008, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,613,550 times
Reputation: 24858
Free College education?

Please remember that a really good liberal arts education actually does teach most of the graduates how to evaluate sources of information and draw their own conclusions. This process is called thinking. Some technical programs do the same but with less skepticism about the source information.

The ruling classes in this country vastly prefer a population that trust every word uttered by their self appointed leaders (Bush and Hillary are way too close together on this one) and are not prone or able to detect the lies and propaganda. Given these circumstances the likely hood of a government education from kindergarten to bachelor’s degree is just about zero. Naked Kings really do not like people that notice the nakedness and then have the audacity to point it out to everyone else.

Beside this the current racket created by the collusion between college admission departments and government subsidized banks is just too good a cash cow for either to want to stop. The colleges can increase prices, the banks receive subsidized interest income and the graduates are stuck with paying the bank for the inflated fees. Loan sharking at it’s very best.

I think we really do need to implement a version the WWII GI Bill education payments for all citizens. That would do more for our actual growth than the import of cheap intellectual labor could ever achieve.

Besides, if such a system was implemented, and it just might, during the remains of my lifetime, I would sign up immediately. I would love to have tuition, meals and books provided so long as I actually attended classes (there should be some requirement that a student actually show up and do some work) an earned at least C grades. In my case I would let my pension pay for off campus housing. I would get in and study all the things I missed the first time around. I might even develop some new technology while I was at it. Or write the new “Harry Potter”.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:49 PM
 
229 posts, read 169,585 times
Reputation: 47
Default Here is some evidence......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
America's deficiencies in the area of science and technology (which are highly debatable; care to provide some definitions or evidence?) have nothing to do with whether college-age people work in fast-food restaurants or not. After all, where is it written that one must complete university in four years or less? What is magical about that number? Far better to take a few extra years, gaining exeprience and maturity, and completing one's undergraduate studies with a real appreciation for sacrifice and budgeting one's time and money. Give me a 27-year old with a BA who has had enough of putting pickles on buns, over a 22-year old who thinks the world owes her a living, any day.
Here is some evidence......

American Brain Drain
The Wall Street Journal: November 30, 2007; Page A16

One myth dogging the immigration debate is that employers are fibbing (or grossly exaggerating) when they claim that hiring foreign professionals is unavoidable because U.S.-born Ph.D.s are hard to come by. But a new report on doctorates from U.S. universities shows they're telling the truth, and then some.

Foreign-born students holding temporary visas received 33% of all research doctorates awarded by U.S. universities in 2006, according to an annual survey by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago. That number has climbed from 25% in 2001. But more to the point of business competitiveness, foreign students comprised 44% of science and engineering doctorates last year.

"China was the country of origin for the largest number of non-U.S. doctorates in 2006," says the report, followed by India, Korea, Taiwan and Canada. "The percentage of doctorates earned by U.S. citizens ranged from lows of 32% in engineering and 47% in physical sciences, to highs of 87% in education and 78% in humanities." Given this reality, is it any wonder that 40% of Ph.D.s working in U.S. science and engineering occupations are foreign-born?

Immigration opponents still claim that the likes of Intel and Oracle merely want to hire Chinese engineers on the cheap. In fact, U.S. law already prohibits companies from paying these foreign nationals less than natives. And all other things being equal, the American job applicant has an advantage because employers are required to pay an additional $4,000-$6,000 in taxes and fees on every H-1B visa holder they hire.

A mere 65,000 H-1B visas for foreign professionals are allocated each year. And this year, as in the previous four, the quota was exhausted almost as soon as the applications became available in April. This effectively means that more than half of all foreign nationals who earned advanced degrees in math and science in 2007 have been shut out of the U.S. job market.

Economic protectionists oppose lifting the visa cap to meet demand. But it makes little sense for our universities to be educating these talented foreign students, only to send them packing after graduation. Current policies have MIT and Stanford educating the next generation of innovators -- and then deporting them to create wealth elsewhere.

Closing the door to foreign professionals puts U.S. companies at a competitive disadvantage and pushes jobs out of the country. Worse, it does so at a time when other nations are rolling out the welcome mat. Earlier this year Microsoft, which is the third-largest sponsor of H-1B visas, announced plans to open a new software development center near Vancouver. The decision to locate the facility in Canada was based in part on the fact that it doesn't have access to enough foreign workers state-side.

"We currently do 85% of our development work in the U.S., and we'd like to continue doing that," says Jack Krumholtz, the company's director of government affairs. "But if we can't hire the developers we need, . . . we're going to have to look to other options to get the work done." Meanwhile, the European Union recently introduced its own new temporary work visa that's designed to reduce red tape and waiting periods for foreign professionals.

If the U.S. spurns this human capital, it will find a home somewhere else. And that will be America's loss.
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Old 01-04-2008, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,264,523 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by yakijy View Post
Here is some evidence......

American Brain Drain
The Wall Street Journal: November 30, 2007; Page A16

One myth dogging the immigration debate is that employers are fibbing (or grossly exaggerating) when they claim that hiring foreign professionals is unavoidable because U.S.-born Ph.D.s are hard to come by. But a new report on doctorates from U.S. universities shows they're telling the truth, and then some.

Foreign-born students holding temporary visas received 33% of all research doctorates awarded by U.S. universities in 2006, according to an annual survey by the National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago. That number has climbed from 25% in 2001. But more to the point of business competitiveness, foreign students comprised 44% of science and engineering doctorates last year.

"China was the country of origin for the largest number of non-U.S. doctorates in 2006," says the report, followed by India, Korea, Taiwan and Canada. "The percentage of doctorates earned by U.S. citizens ranged from lows of 32% in engineering and 47% in physical sciences, to highs of 87% in education and 78% in humanities." Given this reality, is it any wonder that 40% of Ph.D.s working in U.S. science and engineering occupations are foreign-born?

Immigration opponents still claim that the likes of Intel and Oracle merely want to hire Chinese engineers on the cheap. In fact, U.S. law already prohibits companies from paying these foreign nationals less than natives. And all other things being equal, the American job applicant has an advantage because employers are required to pay an additional $4,000-$6,000 in taxes and fees on every H-1B visa holder they hire.

A mere 65,000 H-1B visas for foreign professionals are allocated each year. And this year, as in the previous four, the quota was exhausted almost as soon as the applications became available in April. This effectively means that more than half of all foreign nationals who earned advanced degrees in math and science in 2007 have been shut out of the U.S. job market.

Economic protectionists oppose lifting the visa cap to meet demand. But it makes little sense for our universities to be educating these talented foreign students, only to send them packing after graduation. Current policies have MIT and Stanford educating the next generation of innovators -- and then deporting them to create wealth elsewhere.

Closing the door to foreign professionals puts U.S. companies at a competitive disadvantage and pushes jobs out of the country. Worse, it does so at a time when other nations are rolling out the welcome mat. Earlier this year Microsoft, which is the third-largest sponsor of H-1B visas, announced plans to open a new software development center near Vancouver. The decision to locate the facility in Canada was based in part on the fact that it doesn't have access to enough foreign workers state-side.

"We currently do 85% of our development work in the U.S., and we'd like to continue doing that," says Jack Krumholtz, the company's director of government affairs. "But if we can't hire the developers we need, . . . we're going to have to look to other options to get the work done." Meanwhile, the European Union recently introduced its own new temporary work visa that's designed to reduce red tape and waiting periods for foreign professionals.

If the U.S. spurns this human capital, it will find a home somewhere else. And that will be America's loss.
This is a reference to post-graduate -- especially doctoral -- degrees, and the fact that the level of US technology and R&D so broadly outstrips the rest of the world that we must import substantial numbers of researchers and technicians. It has no relevance to your argument about why flipping hamburgers is somehow connected to lack of access to undergraduate education...
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:20 PM
 
229 posts, read 169,585 times
Reputation: 47
Default I guess you missed thee connection.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
This is a reference to post-graduate -- especially doctoral -- degrees, and the fact that the level of US technology and R&D so broadly outstrips the rest of the world that we must import substantial numbers of researchers and technicians. It has no relevance to your argument about why flipping hamburgers is somehow connected to lack of access to undergraduate education...
Obviously if we need to import foreign post-graduate candidates, we are not doing enough to grow our own talent. Maybe I'm making an excuse, but something must be holding the Americans from progressing as far and fast as the foreign students, and I think part of that is the high cost. Then again, maybe the reason the foreign students progress further is because they are just smarter.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,264,523 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by yakijy View Post
Obviously if we need to import foreign post-graduate candidates, we are not doing enough to grow our own talent. Maybe I'm making an excuse, but something must be holding the Americans from progressing as far and fast as the foreign students, and I think part of that is the high cost. Then again, maybe the reason the foreign students progress further is because they are just smarter.
I don't think foreign students ae smarter. I do think that, in general, they are more highly motivated to succeed.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
4,428 posts, read 6,490,376 times
Reputation: 1721
Default Dee Dee Dee

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
I don't think foreign students ae smarter. I do think that, in general, they are more highly motivated to succeed.
Actually I meet a lot of people from Japan, India, and Russia. From what I got is that they started pushing hard with education at an early age.
In fact my girl (Originally from Russia) said that students that didn't do well were made to feel stupid and forced to work harder by their teachers.
I think Carlos Mancia got it right America standards are lower in the realm of education and we are becoming what he calls. "dee dee dee's" We need to push our kid harder, earlier. They may not like it at the time but I would be for there own benefit and I think they will appreciate later.


YouTube - Dee Dee Dee Song ( Making Fun Of Joe )

Of course that would require our political leader to actually give a crap about our long term future. No child left behind anyone?

OH and one last thing. I don't think we should push quite as hard as Japan. They seem to have a lot of suicide related to school grades.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:39 PM
 
Location: DFW, TX
2,935 posts, read 6,701,973 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by yakijy View Post
Obviously if we need to import foreign post-graduate candidates, we are not doing enough to grow our own talent. Maybe I'm making an excuse, but something must be holding the Americans from progressing as far and fast as the foreign students, and I think part of that is the high cost. Then again, maybe the reason the foreign students progress further is because they are just smarter.
The failure is not at the university level, it's at the middle school level. Studies show how 3rd graders perform well in math and science and more importantly that they are *interested* in math and science. However this drops off drastically by 7th grade.

I have a 5th grader at home and I can't help but blame the new emphasis on standardized testing. We don't teach the students how to learn and explore, we make them regurgitate facts.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:42 PM
 
Location: DFW, TX
2,935 posts, read 6,701,973 times
Reputation: 572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
I don't think foreign students ae smarter. I do think that, in general, they are more highly motivated to succeed.
I think their capacity for knowledge is the same, but I feel their education systems place an emphasis on different styles and subjects than ours.

My pride as an American may distort my vision, but in my experiences there has been no substitute for American ingenuity. In the past we bred the free thinkers. However with No Child Left Behind I fear we are placing the emphasis on memorization and will only fail our children in the world's marketplace.
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