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I brought up the example and he wouldn't back down. He insisted that Sasha Obama would have a harder time and less opportunities, and treated worse by the typical American than my hypothetical John Smith - due to skin color.
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Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
You are confusing white privilege with economic privilege.
You are confusing yourself and failing to understand that the concept of white privilege contains economic advantages.
Quote:
"White privilege is a form of racism that both underlies and is distinct from institutional and overt racism. It underlies them in that both are predicated on preserving the privileges of white people (regardless of whether agents recognize this or not). But it is also distinct in terms of intentionality. It refers to the hegemonic structures, practices, and ideologies that reproduce whites' privileged status. In this scenario, whites do not necessarily intend to hurt people of color, but because they are unaware of their white-skin privilege, and because they accrue social and economic benefits by maintaining the status quo, they inevitably do."
In fact,aren't aspects of white privilege that fall within the broad realm of economics the most common form of white privilege that we hear about?
Getting hired, glass ceilings, income disparities, advantages that allow one to rise to the top, applying for rent in a nice neighborhood, college acceptance and graduation rates, etc...
I just want to put this article here. It's about two girls from our local high school, predominately a black high school, who, despite horrible odds against them, extreme poverty, did homework by candle light, graduated top rank in their class and went to Cornell and Florida A & M to be an architect and a doctor. You will see they don't mention their race. They talk about their poverty, but not their race. Yet they succeeded despite the odds.
You'll see in the second article how one, about to graduate, got help with a little stipend to help pay for housing.
I listened to a man in Ferguson say that all they need in Ferguson is an opportunity. I am hoping we all can look for organizations to support that plan to go out and help give the people of Ferguson who want to rebuild what they need, not the out of state protestors who helped tear it down, but the people who want to rebuild and succeed.
There are losers, blamers, deniers, scapegoaters, deadbeats in EVERY race.
“Have you ever seen or heard anybody babbling about privilege that has any kind of track record of success?"
I am black. I have two Masters degrees and a Doctorate. I was very successful in my chosen field and even recieved national recognition. My husband graduated third in his law school class, retired from the military as a JAG officer, and now is making a rather healthy income as a lawyer. I think that qualifies as a track record of success.
White privledge is very real. But, so is:
Higher educational degree privilege
Beauty privledge
Normal weight privilege
Tall privilege
Rich privilege
Middle class privilege
Pleasing voice privilege
Good etiquette privilege
Fashionable privilege
Brunette or blonde privilege (depending on the circumstances)
Religious privilege (which, depends on the circumstances)
Tatoo-free privilege
Married privilege (that one is a biggie in the military and the clergy)
Unmarried privilege
Native language speaker privilege
Heterosexual privilege
Persuasive speaker privilege
- and the list goes on
All of the above are assumed to be better, all other things being equal, than someone who does not share that trait. Additionally, the person looking at qualifications or flaws is more likely to assign positive attribution to those in the privileged group, whereas with the the non-privileged group they are more likely to view those same traits neutrally or negatively. Depending on the privilege, it can be under the surface, often subconscious, but in-your-face, undeniable at other times. Our ability to see it depends on which side of that particular privilege we stand on. Those granting the privileges are usually very unaware they are doing so. There are white officers in the military who essentially complain there is black privilege when the commanding officer is black. According to my husband, in that particular circumstance, there is probably some legitimacy to that claim. However, when looking at it on a macro level, whites are the beneficiaries.
Does this mean blacks should use that as a reason to give up or to not succeed? Absolutely not. But it does make the playing field less level. If you aren't the one on the uneven surface it is hard to see it, feel it, or understand its effect. Most of us don't understand adversity we have not experienced. For those on the wrong side of privilege, about all you can do is accept that life isn't fair and take advantage of what you do have. Doesn't mean you have to like it or aren't entitled to point it out.
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There are some people who are treated better/worse in certain situations due to whatever race they may be.
However, it is less and less important and less and less a factor of significance.
I have a coworker teaching students that ALL whites have an advantage over ALL blacks due to white privilege. That there are so many people out there looking to hold blacks down.
Compare these 2 individuals:
Sasha Obama being: black, female, from a rich family, going to a private school, being able to get into ivy league schools based on who her parents are even if they are average students, having married parents who seem to be fine parents, has traveled the world and seen many historic and cultural sites, has a tutor, etc....
A hypothetical John Smith: white, male, lives in poverty, parents aren't married - doesn't know dad, lives in the rural U.P. of Michigan, attends a school that is one of Michigan's least funded, needs food stamps to eat, has never left the state of Michigan, etc...
My coworker - a teacher - argued me in front of students that John Smith has a major advantage of Sasha Obama, because he is a white man and that people all over will treat John Smith better because of it. That John Smith is far more likely to be able to reach the top of a career field, etc...
I can't believe that nonsense. America is not that bad, not by a long shot. This is not 1814.
What do black students think when they hear a respected teacher say that John Smith has a significant advantage over someone like Sasha Obama and that there are so many people trying to hold them back, because they are black? Is it surprising that I have had to argue students that claim that hard work does not increase the odds of success? What does it say about society when a bright student with talents doesn't think that hard work increases the chances of success?
Well, I'm going to agree with you here - socioeconomic status MATTERS a great deal - black or white.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
You are confusing white privilege with economic privilege.
Agree. Also agree that SES matters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88
“Have you ever seen or heard anybody babbling about privilege that has any kind of track record of success?"
I guess you failed to read or quote the rest of my post. It's not to be an excuse but should be acknowledged.
I am black. I have two Masters degrees and a Doctorate. I was very successful in my chosen field and even recieved national recognition. My husband graduated third in his law school class, retired from the military as a JAG officer, and now is making a rather healthy income as a lawyer. I think that qualifies as a track record of success.
White privledge is very real. But, so is:
Higher educational degree privilege
Beauty privledge
Normal weight privilege
Tall privilege
Rich privilege
Middle class privilege
Pleasing voice privilege
Good etiquette privilege
Fashionable privilege
Brunette or blonde privilege (depending on the circumstances)
Religious privilege (which, depends on the circumstances)
Tatoo-free privilege
Married privilege (that one is a biggie in the military and the clergy)
Unmarried privilege
Native language speaker privilege
Heterosexual privilege
Persuasive speaker privilege
- and the list goes on
All of the above are assumed to be better, all other things being equal, than someone who does not share that trait. Additionally, the person looking at qualifications or flaws is more likely to assign positive attribution to those in the privileged group, whereas with the the non-privileged group they are more likely to view those same traits neutrally or negatively. Depending on the privilege, it can be under the surface, often subconscious, but in-your-face, undeniable at other times. Our ability to see it depends on which side of that particular privilege we stand on. Those granting the privileges are usually very unaware they are doing so. There are white officers in the military who essentially complain there is black privilege when the commanding officer is black. According to my husband, in that particular circumstance, there is probably some legitimacy to that claim. However, when looking at it on a macro level, whites are the beneficiaries.
Does this mean blacks should use that as a reason to give up or to not succeed? Absolutely not. But it does make the playing field less level. If you aren't the one on the uneven surface it is hard to see it, feel it, or understand its effect. Most of us don't understand adversity we have not experienced. For those on the wrong side of privilege, about all you can do is accept that life isn't fair and take advantage of what you do have. Doesn't mean you have to like it or aren't entitled to point it out.
This is basically what I think about the issue. Everyone has different combinations of privilege. I would also say the entire concept is harmful as it acts as an excuse for the "underprivileged".
Honestly, there's nothing wrong with privilege. I can point out every way that others have privilege that I don't have, but why would I? Complaining that I wasnt born looking like Brad Pitt, born into money, born with parents with connections, born an elite athlete, or literally any category where someone else has it better...it would just be my envy showing.
It just reminds me of people who go on Facebook to complain. They want everyone to know all the bad things they had to deal with, but what good does that do? Maybe some people feel sorry for you? It's better to just get on with your life if you actually care about changing it.
I am black. I have two Masters degrees and a Doctorate. I was very successful in my chosen field and even recieved national recognition. My husband graduated third in his law school class, retired from the military as a JAG officer, and now is making a rather healthy income as a lawyer. I think that qualifies as a track record of success.
All of the above are assumed to be better, all other things being equal, than someone who does not share that trait. Additionally, the person looking at qualifications or flaws is more likely to assign positive attribution to those in the privileged group, whereas with the the non-privileged group they are more likely to view those same traits neutrally or negatively. Depending on the privilege, it can be under the surface, often subconscious, but in-your-face, undeniable at other times. Our ability to see it depends on which side of that particular privilege we stand on. Those granting the privileges are usually very unaware they are doing so. There are white officers in the military who essentially complain there is black privilege when the commanding officer is black. According to my husband, in that particular circumstance, there is probably some legitimacy to that claim. However, when looking at it on a macro level, whites are the beneficiaries.
Does this mean blacks should use that as a reason to give up or to not succeed? Absolutely not. But it does make the playing field less level. If you aren't the one on the uneven surface it is hard to see it, feel it, or understand its effect. Most of us don't understand adversity we have not experienced. For those on the wrong side of privilege, about all you can do is accept that life isn't fair and take advantage of what you do have. Doesn't mean you have to like it or aren't entitled to point it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T0103E
This is basically what I think about the issue. Everyone has different combinations of privilege. I would also say the entire concept is harmful as it acts as an excuse for the "underprivileged".
Honestly, there's nothing wrong with privilege. I can point out every way that others have privilege that I don't have, but why would I? Complaining that I wasnt born looking like Brad Pitt, born into money, born with parents with connections, born an elite athlete, or literally any category where someone else has it better...it would just be my envy showing.
It just reminds me of people who go on Facebook to complain. They want everyone to know all the bad things they had to deal with, but what good does that do? Maybe some people feel sorry for you? It's better to just get on with your life if you actually care about changing it.
I agree with you both.
I also agree with the colonel, I think he made several very good points.
Getting hired, glass ceilings, income disparities, advantages that allow one to rise to the top, applying for rent in a nice neighborhood, college acceptance and graduation rates, etc...
College acceptance? Colleges have different admissions standards for different races. It's easier to get in if you're black than if you're white. And graduating from college instead of dropping out is a sign of "privilege?" Really?
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