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Old 11-29-2014, 07:53 PM
 
1,950 posts, read 1,121,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Only Hawaii has any significant percentage of electric generation from oil. Here's the current break down nationally:

What is U.S. electricity generation by energy source? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
I didn't mean to imply that anywhere had electricity produced from oil. I was just pointing out that natural gas and nuclear fission (which are both significant sources of our electricity) create less pollution than burning oil in an engine. That is why fuel-based emissions from an EV are better for the environment.
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Old 11-29-2014, 08:13 PM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,853,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Hospitality View Post
I didn't mean to imply that anywhere had electricity produced from oil. I was just pointing out that natural gas and nuclear fission (which are both significant sources of our electricity) create less pollution than burning oil in an engine. That is why fuel-based emissions from an EV are better for the environment.
It's not something I've researched or cars but you need to consider the whole process start to finish. For example there was a study I read years ago comparing electric lawnmowers to gasoline lawnmowers. This is going back a decade or more so it's really no longer applicable. They considered the power plant emissions, refining emissions etc. While the electric motor had less emissions the lead batteries and the environmental damage/consequences of those batteries pretty much buried it.

Specifically with these hybrids I have to wonder how many people are going to invest thousands into a 10 year old car with 100K on it.
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Old 11-29-2014, 08:28 PM
 
1,950 posts, read 1,121,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Specifically with these hybrids I have to wonder how many people are going to invest thousands into a 10 year old car with 100K on it.
Statistically, based on hybrids on the road right now, a NIMH high voltage battery needed replacement only 5% of vehicles that reached 150,000 miles. There's no study on Lithium Ion batteries that I'm aware of, but they are supposed to be superior. Generally, hybrid car batteries outlast the vehicle. The warranty is typically 150,000 miles which is more than what most people keep a car for.
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Old 11-29-2014, 08:29 PM
 
1,950 posts, read 1,121,830 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
It's not something I've researched or cars but you need to consider the whole process start to finish. For example there was a study I read years ago comparing electric lawnmowers to gasoline lawnmowers. This is going back a decade or more so it's really no longer applicable. They considered the power plant emissions, refining emissions etc. While the electric motor had less emissions the lead batteries and the environmental damage/consequences of those batteries pretty much buried it.
End to end, including the production of the vehicle and recycling of the battery, a conventional hybrid vehicle is much better for the environment than a traditional gasoline vehicle.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/378.PDF
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Old 11-29-2014, 09:06 PM
 
Location: SC
8,793 posts, read 8,114,449 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blktoptrvl View Post
Just eliminate the gas tax and the tax incentive on electric and hybrid cars and put a tax on tires.

Tires are rated for x miles of driving, the tax should be the equivalent of the gas tax. Everybody then pays the same amount. Unfortunately, everyone will have to finance tire purchases and sport car owners will be drubbed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 70Ford View Post
Unless you buy used tires.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Hospitality View Post
You pay tax on used tired (unless you're in a state without sales tax). My guess is that it could be collected the same way.

Otherwise, it also makes sense to only pay the tax once (the original purchaser). But that's not how taxes generally work.
In fact, now that I think about it, sports car drivers don't have to be drubbed; because tires are rated for wear life, the tax rate on longer life tires would be twice as much as shorter life - high performance tires. This way, the sport car owner would be paying the same road tax as the Prius owner.

And if a tire is prematurely destroyed by a nail or blowout, the prorated value (unused amount of tire) is rebated and the tire destroyed. If the tire is sold while still having life, then that life and tax benefit remains with the tire.
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Old 11-29-2014, 09:30 PM
 
31,904 posts, read 14,886,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
It's a user fee, use the roads and you pay for them. Don't have a car you don't pay. What is there to complain about?
Actually, if you take the bus or a cab, you are still using the roads for transportation.
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Old 11-30-2014, 05:54 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,858 posts, read 8,159,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blktoptrvl View Post
In fact, now that I think about it, sports car drivers don't have to be drubbed; because tires are rated for wear life, the tax rate on longer life tires would be twice as much as shorter life - high performance tires. This way, the sport car owner would be paying the same road tax as the Prius owner.

And if a tire is prematurely destroyed by a nail or blowout, the prorated value (unused amount of tire) is rebated and the tire destroyed. If the tire is sold while still having life, then that life and tax benefit remains with the tire.

Well, tire life is subject to a lot of conditions. A 60,000 mile tire can last only 20,000 miles, or it can actually last longer than 60,000 miles depending on the kind of surface it is mostly driving on. If you are driving on smooth turnpikes at 70 mph, you are going to get a lot more miles than if you are driving rough neighborhood streets. The weather also plays a role in tire life. Hot weather will lower tire life.

For that matter, things like your alignment, tire rotation, tire balance, tire pressure, and dry-rot can destroy tires long before their mileage rating.

If we go back to "sports-cars". Doing "Burn-outs" destroys tires. Plus, a lot of people take their sports car to the drag strip to run quarter-miles.


The object is to have people pay their "fair share" of the cost of building and maintaining the roads. Taxing tires would be practically as unfair as the current system, and possibly more.


On top of that, it would heavily discourage people from driving, especially poor people. If we looked at the cost of tires. The last time I put tires on my car, it was about $530 for all four tires, Michelin's. That was the tires themselves plus mounting plus balancing. They are "90,000 mile tires".

To cover the total cost of road maintenance(IE, get rid of car tag fees, titling fees and pay only with the tire fee), you would probably need about 2-4 cents per mile(depending on what state you are in and your car weight). California's fuel-related tax per gallon is almost 70 cents. If the average car got 25 mpg, that is almost 3 cents per mile. A light car might be more like 2 cents per mile, and a heavy vehicle would be at 4 cents per mile.

At 4 cents a miles, that is $3600 in taxes on a set of tires. Driving my cost of purchasing tires up from $530, to $4,130. That kind of up-front cost would simply make it impossible for a very large number of people to even be able to buy tires. And would make tires so valuable, that even the cheapest tires would be stolen left and right. It would create an entire black market just for stolen basic commuter tires.


Point is, the tire tax is a really stupid idea.
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Old 11-30-2014, 06:55 AM
 
25,777 posts, read 16,401,223 times
Reputation: 15959
The mileage tax is the most fair. Simple solution, an odometer check when you renew your license tabs. Your tabs are then taxed by mileage and vehicle value and weight. Part of it goes for the roads. Then take the fuel tax off gasoline.
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Old 11-30-2014, 06:59 AM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,853,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natalie469 View Post
Actually, if you take the bus or a cab, you are still using the roads for transportation.
Those fees get passed onto the consumer. It's the same thing when you buy something at the supermarket.
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Old 11-30-2014, 07:03 AM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,853,371 times
Reputation: 17863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Point is, the tire tax is a really stupid idea.
Certainly some bad points, e.g. off roaders, poor tire maintenance etc. The benefit of removing a very complex taxing system can't be ignored.
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