Family of Cleveland boy killed in fake gun tragedy says shooting could have been avoided (guns, jobs)

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by natalie469

But a BB gun is not a toy gun since it actually shoots pellets. And it looks like a real gun.

First, it was not a BB gun, it was an airsoft gun. It is a gun designed to fire non-metallic projectiles at people in shooting games.

Now, I said this:

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
The question is: What was in the 6th-grader's mind? Do you really think he was reaching for what he knew was a toy gun in order to shoot the police?

If not, then clearly he was confused or didn't understand what should have been the proper response to the command being so quickly barked at him. I've been a Scout leader and led other youth groups. I can tell you for certain that little boys usually don't respond accurately to sudden unfamiliar commands from strangers. Their brains simply aren't working that way ye

t.

And my question still stands: Do you really think this sixth-grader was reaching for what he knew was not a real gun with the intention of shooting the police? I ask this to interrogate the claim that this was someone "going for his gun instead of obeying police commands."

If you don't think this 6th grader had in his mind to gun down the police, then the only other conclusion is that he didn't understand how to respond correctly to the commands being barked at him in the two seconds--according to the police--that he had to respond.

[lvoc]

Originally Posted by Arjay51

I will admit that I am wrong when you do. Personal testimony? Highly doubtful. The military does not train to shoot in an inward facing circle, they train to look at targets that are not them. Additionally, unless on the range they do not use live ammo.

Did you look up the term RIC? If so you grossly misunderstood the information and method of training.

From all of your previously posts it just sounds like something else you made up, and not very convincing, as usual.

Don't you tire of always being wrong? Here is an account of what it was like...

****************************
We spent hours - and I mean many hours - dry firing, and then dry
firing with a penny balanced on the muzzle, I disremember exactly
where we put that coin, but it sure taught you not to jerk the trigger
or make any stupid moves while dry firing.

kilo>>

......................The next phase was devoted to qualifying with the M-1 rifle. The Army--then--placed great emphasis on marksmanship--the ability to place a well-aimed shot on the target.

Today, not anywhere near the time is spent on marksmanship as it was in my early years. Giving the individual soldier a automatic-fire capability has down-graded marksmanship--to bad. But back then, marksmanship was king and we spent an incredible amount of time just preparing to qualify. The most boring session was the "PRI Preliminary Rifle Instruction) Circle." Sounds innocent enough--but it was awful.

First the field was open to the 100 degree sun which beat down on the sweating and thirsty recruits. The field itself consisted of stones--varying in size from one inch, up to five inches across. Many of the stones had nice sharp-pointed edges.

The recruits would lay down with their rifles, forming a circle. The recruits would aim toward the center of the circle. About twenty feet in front of each recruit was a cardboard box with a bulls-eye type target pinned to it. This was designed to teach us how to "take up a correct picture"--how to aim in simple terms. What we would do--while the sun beat down, and the hot-burning stones perforated our knees and testicles--was to aim at that damn target.

The rifles had a small mirror device that allowed the NCOs to walk around and actually see if we were aiming properly. That's all we did--lay there on those hot sharp stones, and just Aim and pull the trigger--over, and over, and over again. Compared to this, watching paint dry approaches the Super Bowl for excitement. I remember to this day how long we spent doing this--it was twenty-two hours! That comes out to almost four complete training days!






One thing all of this tedious training did accomplish was to impress on us the importance of accurate firing and made us long for the time when we would have live ammo. It also convinced us that the Army leadership was either moronic, insane, or both. Both was the popular consensus.
-------------- next part --------------
***************************************
[Vwar] US Army snipers take the gold

If you really want to see how far off you are in your pomposity see...

http://www.denix.osd.mil/cr/upload/0...Small_Arms.pdf

Page 108 has the diagram and discussion of a RIC.

[natalie469]

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

First, it was not a BB gun, it was an airsoft gun. It is a gun designed to fire non-metallic projectiles at people in shooting games.

Now, I said this:

t.

And my question still stands: Do you really think this sixth-grader was reaching for what he knew was not a real gun with the intention of shooting the police? I ask this to interrogate the claim that this was someone "going for his gun instead of obeying police commands."

If you don't think this 6th grader had in his mind to gun down the police, then the only other conclusion is that he didn't understand how to respond correctly to the commands being barked at him in the two seconds--according to the police--that he had to respond.

Honestly, I want to know where his parents were and why he had this "gun" waving it around. These days 6th graders are very smart and way more advanced than we give them credit for.

[T_DC]

Originally Posted by natalie469

[/b]

Honestly, I want to know where his parents were and why he had this "gun" waving it around. These days 6th graders are very smart and way more advanced than we give them credit for.

6th graders are still physically 6th graders. Their brains are still forming and no matter how much adult subject matter they may have access to their quick reactions will probably be that of a kid. I am sure that there are exceptions to the rule.

Why do you care about his parents whereabouts? You didn't get to go to the park when you were a kid?

[natalie469]

Originally Posted by T_DC

6th graders are still physically 6th graders. Their brains are still forming and no matter how much adult subject matter they may have access to their quick reactions will probably be that of a kid. I am sure that there are exceptions to the rule.

Why do you care about his parents whereabouts? You didn't get to go to the park when you were a kid?

Of course I went to the park but I didn't wave around what some thought was a real gun. We live in a very different world now. There is so much violence. Parents need to teach their kids what is appropriate behavior and what is not.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by natalie469

[/b]

Honestly, I want to know where his parents were and why he had this "gun" waving it around. These days 6th graders are very smart and way more advanced than we give them credit for.

As I've said before, I've worked with hundreds of sixth graders. If a stranger rushes upon a sixth grader and barks an unfamiliar command, the chances of that kid instantly performing as intended are nearly zero.

[natalie469]

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

As I've said before, I've worked with hundreds of sixth graders. If a stranger rushes upon a sixth grader and barks an unfamiliar command, the chances of that kid instantly performing as intended are nearly zero.

How is a cop a stranger. Kids know who cops are. As a child I was afraid of them and would have done anything they said.

[Hyperthetic]

Originally Posted by natalie469

How is a cop a stranger. Kids know who cops are. As a child I was afraid of them and would have done anything they said.

If they gave you time to respond.

[T_DC]

Originally Posted by natalie469

Of course I went to the park but I didn't wave around what some thought was a real gun. We live in a very different world now. There is so much violence. Parents need to teach their kids what is appropriate behavior and what is not.

Those were 2 different comments. I went to the park and didn't wave around a gun either. I didn't have BB guns as a kid and I never handed firearms. I am sure that is not the case for all adults.

Depending on when you grew up there is actually less violence. I grew up in a time when things were 2 to 3 times worse when it came to pretty much all crime. I would say that there is more exposure to violence but in this case there wasn't an initial violent act committed.

Until we hear from witnesses, it seems more like he was playing pretend. I don't know if he realized what it meant for him to scare people in that way. He didn't pretend it was real and try to rob anyone or force them to do anything. The guy who called it in actually sat at that gazebo for a while so he seemed to have figured out that it was fake. At one point in time he pulls it out on someone and they don't freeze up or react as if someone had pulled out a real gun so I think they figured it out too. My guess is that the caller was thinking it would end in a confrontation and a ride to his house along with a lecture and some shaming. It will be interesting to hear what the witnesses, who he was said to scare, have to say about what went down.


I don't think that it crosses the minds of most parents that their kid might pretend to pull out a fake gun on someone and that if they did it would lead to such tragic consequences. For the most part, you teach appropriate behavior as bad behavior is exhibited or as a the opportunity presents itself. There is no long list of behaviors that you give kids to study prior to them doing the wrong thing and then being corrected. I bet that if they were able to intervene prior to the cops coming up then they would have yanked it out of his hands and taken him home.

[natalie469]

Originally Posted by T_DC

Those were 2 different comments. I went to the park and didn't wave around a gun either. I didn't have BB guns as a kid and I never handed firearms. I am sure that is not the case for all adults.

Depending on when you grew up there is actually less violence. I grew up in a time when things were 2 to 3 times worse when it came to pretty much all crime. I would say that there is more exposure to violence but in this case there wasn't an initial violent act committed.

Until we hear from witnesses, it seems more like he was playing pretend. I don't know if he realized what it meant for him to scare people in that way. He didn't pretend it was real and try to rob anyone or force them to do anything. The guy who called it in actually sat at that gazebo for a while so he seemed to have figured out that it was fake. At one point in time he pulls it out on someone and they don't freeze up or react as if someone had pulled out a real gun so I think they figured it out too. My guess is that the caller was thinking it would end in a confrontation and a ride to his house along with a lecture and some shaming. It will be interesting to hear what the witnesses, who he was said to scare, have to say about what went down.


I don't think that it crosses the minds of most parents that their kid might pretend to pull out a fake gun on someone and that if they did it would lead to such tragic consequences. For the most part, you teach appropriate behavior as bad behavior is exhibited or as a the opportunity presents itself. There is no long list of behaviors that you give kids to study prior to them doing the wrong thing and then being corrected. I bet that if they were able to intervene prior to the cops coming up then they would have yanked it out of his hands and taken him home.

In this day and age, there is no playing cops and robbers anymore. There should be no kid waving around a fake gun because how does anyone know it's fake. That's just how it is these days. I'm not saying it's right but that's how it is now