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Old 12-01-2014, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,798,618 times
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The idea of a helping hand is a sound one as that enables folks to focus on getting themselves on track to determine their own lives. That is what government is there for, after war, natural disaster, economic disaster.

The idea of permanent help is ridiculous as that saps incentive.

It is almost like the reservations system used for American Indians in the 19th century with government handouts.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:16 AM
 
34,274 posts, read 19,280,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
The idea of a helping hand is a sound one as that enables folks to focus on getting themselves on track to determine their own lives. That is what government is there for, after war, natural disaster, economic disaster.

The idea of permanent help is ridiculous as that saps incentive.

It is almost like the reservations system used for American Indians in the 19th century with government handouts.
You mean after we took everything from them? Thats a horrible comparison. I mean...like really really bad.

A government is for all of its citizens. ours is more for the 1% at the moment. you do understand this right?
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:21 AM
 
4,873 posts, read 3,583,241 times
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Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
To defeat poverty, you must defeat free will and human nature. You must defeat self-actualization. You must defeat ambition, desire, greed, work ethic, passion and long term planning. That's the only way you defeat poverty.

You see, poverty is a relative term. It requires a "compared to" population to make any sense. The poorest American is in the richest 20% of the global population simply by virtue of being in America. They are poor compared to other Americans, but rich compared to the vast majority of everyone else on Earth. It's a measure of envy and coveting. Once basic survival is handled, everything else is about jealousy and relativism.

And since some people will always be more ambitious, capable, faster, bigger, stronger, smarter, etc than others, some will succeed more relative to those others, and will thus be "richer" by compare. So until you stop them from being more successful, or program to not want to be, you will always, now and forever, have poverty.

That's the biggest problem with socialism in all its incarnations, and why capitalism always kicks its arse for improving the human condition generally - it ignores or tries to go against basic human nature. Thus, it always ends up failing.
I don't think there's any reason a nation as wealthy as the US should have children who miss meals due to poverty. I'm far from convinced that hungry children are the essential foundation of wealth, or that wealth would be worth attaining given those conditions.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,798,618 times
Reputation: 6650
Ref #62
I was referring to the Reservation system not what occurred prior to. But if you wish to debate that you can as History shows our world is built on one conquest and exploitation after another. I think you are too intelligent to post foolishly on this subject. We may disagree but let us not lose our estimation of the other.

I believe in the axiom that one reinforces success and not failure. Also that it takes money to make money. No poor person ever hired another person.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:23 AM
 
13,819 posts, read 5,538,666 times
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Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
I don't think there's any reason a nation as wealthy as the US should have children who miss meals due to poverty. I'm far from convinced that hungry children are the essential foundation of wealth, or that wealth would be worth attaining given those conditions.
OK, so the child's parents have abdicated their responsibility, and now it is mine?
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:25 AM
 
34,274 posts, read 19,280,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
Ref #62
I was referring to the Reservation system not what occurred prior to. But if you wish to debate that you can as History shows our world is built on one conquest and exploitation after another. I think you are too intelligent to post foolishly on this subject. We may disagree but let us not lose our estimation of the other.

I believe in the axiom that one reinforces success and not failure. Also that it takes money to make money. No poor person ever hired another person.
LOL, fair enough regarding conquests. But lets talk about the "it takes money to make money" tthink on that one for a bit. If you have no money, you arent going to make money. And currently our money is going overwhelmingly to the top. That one sentence encompasses why the problem is getting worse.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:27 AM
 
34,274 posts, read 19,280,533 times
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Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
OK, so the child's parents have abdicated their responsibility, and now it is mine?
As a member of the society in which the child exists in....yes. Mine too.

Want to punish the parents for it? sure. Bill them, whatever. but we should not punish the children for the parents who abdicated their responsibility, or FAR more likely were unable to fulfill those responsibilities. Not always by their preferred choice.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,798,618 times
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Originally Posted by greywar View Post
LOL, fair enough regarding conquests. But lets talk about the "it takes money to make money" tthink on that one for a bit. If you have no money, you arent going to make money. And currently our money is going overwhelmingly to the top. That one sentence encompasses why the problem is getting worse.
I am not part of the top and have money to the extent I started making money with that money.(Thanks to those with money who hired me because they saw that I could make them more money) All you need is to get to the middle class which I equate with considerable residual net income. I will leave being rich to my next generation if that is what they hunger for.

My family were immigrants who came here with nothing, 1941 and 1957 respectively. No knowledge of the language either. There is a lot to be said for values. But nobody wants to hear that anymore.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:36 AM
 
4,873 posts, read 3,583,241 times
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Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
OK, so the child's parents have abdicated their responsibility, and now it is mine?
Many of these hungry children have parents working multiple minimum-wage jobs to raise these kids to the best of their ability. The reason they can't make ends meet is the dramatically unfair wage structure of our society, not their own lack of responsibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
I am not part of the top and have money to the extent I started making money with that money.(Thanks to those with money who hired me because they saw that I could make them more money) All you need is to get to the middle class which I equate with considerable residual net income. I will leave being rich to my next generation if that is what they hunger for.

My family were immigrants who came here with nothing, 1941 and 1957 respectively. No knowledge of the language either. There is a lot to be said for values. But nobody wants to hear that anymore.
Your parents immigrated to the US at a time of opportunities for low-capital workers that have since evaporated; if they came here now they'd be jobless and in the poorhouse (if they could come at all, or would even want to). But nobody wants to hear that, either.
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Old 12-01-2014, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,798,618 times
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Originally Posted by FrankMiller View Post
Your parents immigrated to the US at a time of opportunities for low-capital workers that have since evaporated; if they came here now they'd be jobless and in the poorhouse (if they could come at all, or would even want to). But nobody wants to hear that, either.
You have no idea what they experienced. Yours is an assumption based on situations which do not allow for individual merit. Humans are unique and have the ability to improve their lot or otherwise. There was no welfare state for my parents and so they worked. They were farmers so the idea of not working would be bizarre. The idea of not working is shameful. This attribute, one standard, is now considered novel.

There are plenty of jobs in the USA but some folk are too arrogrant to take them. Why? Minds polluted by their own culture. Add in those who which to be demagogues. See it nowadays even among middle class university graduates. Entitlement is the word.
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