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Old 12-18-2014, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,014 posts, read 27,408,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
There is never any moral obligation to torture someone. NEVER.
I hear you and respect your opinion.
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Old 12-18-2014, 09:40 AM
 
4,006 posts, read 6,018,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
His revenge is still irrelevant to our conversation about torture.
No it's not.
By your definition of torture, this dad tortured the guy.
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Old 12-18-2014, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,014 posts, read 27,408,388 times
Reputation: 15934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post



Therefore by inference I can only assume that torturing a suspect who may have abducted your nephew is in your mind justified.

However not to quibble on your inconsistency..
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is a suspect or a terrorist?

I have been very consistent with my point of view.
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Old 12-18-2014, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
6,542 posts, read 4,075,753 times
Reputation: 3805
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
i don't know why do you always come back and ask the same question over and over.

I have made myself VERY clear, I do NOT support torturing INNOCENT civilians, I don't even support torturing suspects. You are right, Most of the detainees are not terrorists, and torturing them is both morally and legally wrong.

However, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is a well known mastermind of 911. Torturing him to get information is justified and morally obligated.
But it is unconstitutional.

And I wouldn't say it's morally justified. Allowing torture for the sake of being best overall is a very utilitarian idea, and I really don't want a utilitarian government. That's what allowed Internment camps in the 1940s, a blatant disregard to human rights. It seemed like a necessary precaution but it showed the governments absolute disregard for humanity. Torture is no different. A terrorists is still a human being, even if he/she is void of morals. We can't also abandon morals to fight them and still retain a moral high ground.

All human are to be treated with respect, granted basic rights, and never be treated as a mere means. Torturing someone is treating them only as an object with information. Even if the prisoner is an immoral actor, it is still immoral for us to treat them in ways we would not treat another person.
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Old 12-18-2014, 09:41 AM
 
4,006 posts, read 6,018,684 times
Reputation: 3897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDusty View Post
The only issue with this is that they're rarely after a confession. You're absolutely right if it's a confession they want, but they usually just want more information.

Don't mistake me for being in favor of torture; I think it's wrong regardless, but this is unfortunately only valuable some of the time. With that said, if I were being torture and was asked to reveal the location of ISIS's leader, I'd make something up to stop the torture (we can assume 'I don't know anything' won't get me out of it).
But, if lying just to get the interrogation to stop were going to get you an even worse interrogation the next time, you'd be more likely to tell the truth.
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Old 12-18-2014, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,014 posts, read 27,408,388 times
Reputation: 15934
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDusty View Post
But it is unconstitutional.

And I wouldn't say it's morally justified. Allowing torture for the sake of being best overall is a very utilitarian idea, and I really don't want a utilitarian government. That's what allowed Internment camps in the 1940s, a blatant disregard to human rights. It seemed like a necessary precaution but it showed the governments absolute disregard for humanity. Torture is no different. A terrorists is still a human being, even if he/she is void of morals. We can't also abandon morals to fight them and still retain a moral high ground.

All human are to be treated with respect, granted basic rights, and never be treated as a mere means. Torturing someone is treating them only as an object with information. Even if the prisoner is an immoral actor, it is still immoral for us to treat them in ways we would not treat another person.
Like I said, I don't disagree with you.

THE points I am trying to make are the following,

a. To say EIT never worked is intellectual dishonesty.

b. we are living in a world which is not 100% black or white. War is a dirty business.

Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 12-18-2014, 09:44 AM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,772,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
No it's not.
By your definition of torture, this dad tortured the guy.
Not by my definition.
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Old 12-18-2014, 09:44 AM
 
4,006 posts, read 6,018,684 times
Reputation: 3897
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
Beating isn't a form of torture. Torture is a situation where something is demanded from the person being tortured, and the torture will stop when the person being tortured supplies that demand. While beating may sometimes be a means of torture, it is not torture in and of itself. It wasn't torture in this case. In this case the beating was revenge.
So, is revenge sometimes warranted? Is it OK to beat a child molester if he admits to it?

Does the guy who bombed the Boston marathon deserve to be beaten as revenge for what he did?
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Old 12-18-2014, 09:45 AM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,772,490 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
So, is revenge sometimes warranted? Is it OK to beat a child molester if he admits to it?

Does the guy who bombed the Boston marathon deserve to be beaten as revenge for what he did?
This thread is about torture. Not about revenge.
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Old 12-18-2014, 09:48 AM
 
4,006 posts, read 6,018,684 times
Reputation: 3897
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDusty View Post
But it is unconstitutional.

And I wouldn't say it's morally justified. Allowing torture for the sake of being best overall is a very utilitarian idea, and I really don't want a utilitarian government. That's what allowed Internment camps in the 1940s, a blatant disregard to human rights. It seemed like a necessary precaution but it showed the governments absolute disregard for humanity. Torture is no different. A terrorists is still a human being, even if he/she is void of morals. We can't also abandon morals to fight them and still retain a moral high ground.

All human are to be treated with respect, granted basic rights, and never be treated as a mere means. Torturing someone is treating them only as an object with information. Even if the prisoner is an immoral actor, it is still immoral for us to treat them in ways we would not treat another person.
Wow....
You're saying terrorists who cut off innocent people's heads, shoot children and burn woman alive deserve to be treated with respect?

Is that what you're saying?

Please clarify because I really want to make sure I'm clear on your stance.
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