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Old 01-05-2008, 04:39 AM
 
20,250 posts, read 19,821,292 times
Reputation: 13321

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhouse2001 View Post
Animals don't form countries, why should we? Mother nature works perfectly without taxation and representation. I say we should learn from the natural world that birthed us into existence.

Everything cooperates in nature, though from our perspective, we see it as competitive. Everything understands its purpose and joyously plays its role--there is no insignificance. Now, compare that blissful temperament to what humans have concocted. To say that humans are hopelessly wired wrong is to suggest that there's no hope for improvement. What then is the point of our lives if not to improve ourselves and dream of a better future? THIS is the better future. It's all around us if we stop long enough to listen and see. Eventually, our broken values will change, our thinking will focus, and purpose and meaning will come into view.

John Lennon was right. The affairs of man are impermanent. Better to consider the larger picture and turn dreams into reality.
No thanks. The idea of dying by starvation, disease, hit by a truck loaded down with Ben and Jerry's or being eaten has absolutely no appeal.

Of course, if I can elect to be at the very top of the food chain the idea of getting eaten disappears. So much for equality.
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Old 01-05-2008, 08:12 AM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,521,481 times
Reputation: 22472
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhouse2001 View Post
Animals don't form countries, why should we? Mother nature works perfectly without taxation and representation. I say we should learn from the natural world that birthed us into existence.

Everything cooperates in nature, though from our perspective, we see it as competitive. Everything understands its purpose and joyously plays its role--there is no insignificance. Now, compare that blissful temperament to what humans have concocted. To say that humans are hopelessly wired wrong is to suggest that there's no hope for improvement. What then is the point of our lives if not to improve ourselves and dream of a better future? THIS is the better future. It's all around us if we stop long enough to listen and see. Eventually, our broken values will change, our thinking will focus, and purpose and meaning will come into view.

John Lennon was right. The affairs of man are impermanent. Better to consider the larger picture and turn dreams into reality.
You must have little knowledge of the natural world. Many animals are in fact very territorial. They mark the borders of their "country" and they will attack others of their species that encrouch on them.

A pack of wolves does not welcome another pack into it's range. Nature is very competitive in reality. Not many hippies in the natural world -- unless you look at rabbits which are just food for the predators.
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Old 01-05-2008, 08:15 AM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,521,481 times
Reputation: 22472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
John Lennon was a multimillionaire and he is survived by a banshee. No collective there....

True -- I think John Lennon was a total fraud. Did he not charge money for his concerts? Did he share his wealth or did he not live in a pretty posh part of Manhattan.

He became exceedingly rich taking money for his music.
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Old 01-05-2008, 08:25 AM
 
17,290 posts, read 29,328,662 times
Reputation: 8691
The trend actually seems to be AWAY from consolidation... how many separatist movements exist in the world these days?
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Old 01-05-2008, 08:25 AM
 
139 posts, read 374,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teatime View Post
That's not true. Animals form packs and simple societies, have distinct leaders and followers, and are very territorial. They also have expectations of appropriate behavior and will run off or kill those who are weak or somehow fall short. Survival of the fittest is instinctive in them and, to some degree, us, as well. When you say that there is no competitiveness but only cooperation in nature, how do you explain animals eating their young or battling to the death for a mate?

Lennon "imagines" no structure or authority. That's simply not realistic. Governance should be by consent, of course, but among peoples there are those who must lead and those who are content to follow, not wanting the burden of leadership or decision-making. If there is no structure or authority, then who will ensure that those who cannot be self-sufficient are provided for?

I suppose it seemed realistic to someone who was wealthy and could spend months on end smoking hashish on a mountaintop learning enlightenment from a maharashi but, oops, didn't he say "no religion, too?" If Lennon was serious, he would have lived a subsistence lifestyle, giving away all of his excess and providing his music free or nearly so for the pure enjoyment of others. Did he? In his vision, it would have been very wrong for him to be affluent from writing and performing songs while others tried to live on less than $1 per day but I don't see that he did much about that. It's easy to throw ideas and questions out there when you aren't expected to actually answer or live them.

Greed and envy come from a variety of sources and are, unfortunately, part of the human condition. I taught in schools that mandated students wear uniforms to prevent distractions and promote equality. Those kids STILL found occasions for greed and envy -- whether it be over someone else's hairstyle or writing implement. If someone had a fancier pen, the others would try to steal it. If a girl came in with a new hair-do, the others would rush off and get theirs done the same way so she wasn't unique anymore until someone else came up with something different. It was very, very interesting.

I think that without the religion, the world would be a completely different place, I think that to an extent religion gave people morals and standards to live by. & I think that greed, and wanting things just comes naturally to pretty much everyone. We discussed a topic like this one in my English class last year, and to quote what my teacher said, "If you want to find out how much man loves his money, try to borrow some."


Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
It's not possible to have no countries, no "group", no varying cultures or people.

Peace means respect of each other's sovereignty and right to exist as a nation, a respect for borders. Having different countries is what gets peace started in the first place. A country gets too varied, too polarized and this results in civil war. The country splits, and each side leaves the other alone -- that results in peace for a while.
That's a really good way to look at it, and I think you're right. If the world had no countries, then eventually, one day, a group of people would start changing their ideas and wanting something different which could end up in a war with a divided country.
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Old 01-05-2008, 11:22 AM
 
Location: San Antonio-Westover Hills
6,884 posts, read 20,352,675 times
Reputation: 5175
That anyone is even here considering John Lennon to be a political or humanitarian genius is laughable. He was a singer. An entertainer. That's it. It's easy to be heard by the masses if you've already got their love and attention. You wanna "imagine" something? Imagine John Lennon if he were spouting off at the mouth like he did and HOMELESS on the streets or living in a 7 story walk-up in Harlem waiting tables at the Chicken and Waffle place. Oh come on, it's easy if you try!


*picks up game card*
Let's see...how many Utopian governments have been successful? Um.....one? Two?
*buzzer sound*
Ooops, no, ooooh, sorry....wrong answer.
*flips card over*
The answer we're looking for is "NONE". That's "none".
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Old 01-05-2008, 12:12 PM
 
1,080 posts, read 1,708,287 times
Reputation: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberty53000 View Post
That would be SO amazing!
And SO unlikely!
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Old 01-05-2008, 12:44 PM
 
1,409 posts, read 4,853,527 times
Reputation: 486
Imagine there’s no hippies
It’s easy if you try
No hemp or beads below us
Above us God is nigh
Imagine all the people
Working hard today...

Imagine there’s no communes
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to whine or pout for
And no more liberals too
Imagine all the people
Living with success...

You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will be more fun

Imagine no more potheads
I wonder if you can
No need for speed or hashish
Just self-reliant man
Imagine all the people
Responsible for their own...

You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will know the Son!

(At loooooong last...a version of this song that I actually LIKE!)
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Old 01-05-2008, 12:46 PM
 
1,409 posts, read 4,853,527 times
Reputation: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs View Post
That anyone is even here considering John Lennon to be a political or humanitarian genius is laughable. He was a singer. An entertainer. That's it. It's easy to be heard by the masses if you've already got their love and attention. You wanna "imagine" something? Imagine John Lennon if he were spouting off at the mouth like he did and HOMELESS on the streets or living in a 7 story walk-up in Harlem waiting tables at the Chicken and Waffle place. Oh come on, it's easy if you try!


*picks up game card*
Let's see...how many Utopian governments have been successful? Um.....one? Two?
*buzzer sound*
Ooops, no, ooooh, sorry....wrong answer.
*flips card over*
The answer we're looking for is "NONE". That's "none".
LOL!! I love it. Your post totally rocks, Mom2Feebs
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Old 01-05-2008, 02:49 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,524,267 times
Reputation: 3020
Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
The trend actually seems to be AWAY from consolidation... how many separatist movements exist in the world these days?
So true, and interesting. Canada's new territory of "Nunavut" comes to mind..a huge part of the nation, inhabited mostly by just a very few native Inuit ( who are the large majority), who administer the place with broad allowances for the native culture.

There are similar "movements" all over the world, AWAY from big, centralized government, toward local self-determination, including the study and promotion of the use of once-disappearing languages and dialects....

Interesting subject..
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