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I don't have a problem with the word illegitimate but it is outdated and meaningless today. My daughter is illegitimate but she still has her father's surname and there will be no problem for her inheriting from him if there's anything to inherit. The only difference between legitimate children and illegitimate children is that paternity needs to be established before child support and the right to inherit can be achieved, but all that takes (at least where I live) is a paper signed by both parents.
Maybe I missed it, because I skimmed some of the posts, but who exactly is taunting all these children with the word illegitimate? Are there grade school kids running around going "haha! you're illegitimate!" at other kids with unmarried parents. Somehow I doubt that...
Archaic or not, they are still valid terms. Just because many people have children out-of-wedlock does not validate their choice.
A lot of people doing something that is wrong does not turn it into a right. Not in God's eyes, nor in society. Use your head. That's why God gave you a brain.
If something is archaic, it should not be viewed as valid. This is why kinds and queens no longer rule and why women are considered people.
I have no objection to you saying many people doing something does not make it wrong, but just because something was once considered wrong does not make it wrong forever. History has made that very clear. I won't argue that two people who are not in a committed relationship having a kid is typically not a good thing, I don't know if I'd go so far to call it wrong. I guess to keep this short, why is it 'wrong?' If the answer is 'it's just always been that way' then the idea absolutely should be thrown out and completely reevaluated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 68551
lets call it as it is.....years ago when the term illegitimate was started very few children were born out of wedlock. It was an embarrassment to the family and couple involved. Then the sexual revolution came and the tides were turned, everything is ok and no one should be badmouthed....I long for the days to return as they were, There still is a stigma to having kids without being married, hence illegitimate....It is calling things as they are, and if you don't want to have your child labeled then it is YOUR responsibility, male or female, to stop promiscuity. Like it or not, women are the ones that carry the baby and have the biggest change in their lives, so my contention is that if women would go back to saying no it would not only solve the problem with the term many of you have a problem with it would also slow down the welfare rolls. It isn't society that is the problem it is the promiscuity.
I like that you end this by saying 'would would go back to saying no.' Great. Place the blame on one person. Let me guess, you also think it's just natural for a man to want have more sex to? Read what I said above about archaic ideas and why they have no place in a modern society. Men are just as responsible for having a child out of wedlock. I'd argue that have a greater responsibility actually. While a woman (abortions and adoptions not factored in) is stuck with the child, the man has to make a conscious decision to leave. It's no secret that many men walk out. And while plenty of the older generations aren't fans of unmarried couples having kids, they at least respect the fact that they remain a couple. So in fact, if men would step up and take responsibility for themselves instead of pawning the problem off on women because it's easier for them to justify their own shortcomings, the problem would actually improve greatly.
Need I also point out the fact that society is in fact a huge part of the problem. Despite being one of the most oversexualized cultures on Earth, we are also ridiculously conservative about the issue. The media and advertising bombards people with sexual imagery, creating a sex obsessed culture. This is going to lead to more promiscuity. Yet, the more conservative crowds don't target the source of the problem, the blame the person who was raised in a society that normalizes casual sex and sexualises everything. They fight for abstinence and act as if everything is a sin, when studies have made is VERY clear that kids raised in those types of environments are statistically more likely to get pregnant as a teenager.
Our society is broken. We either need to be sexually conservative or not, but this in between crap is the reason we have this problem at all. If you ask me, just encourage safe sex. Ingrain that in their head from a young age instead of the scare tactic fairly tale of going to hell is you so much as look at nipple.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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I believe the term illegitimate is related to inheritance rather than saying the child is unimportant.
Modern example: my mother in law was one of 8 kids that her father had on the side. He had several with his wife and several with other women. When he died the illegitimate kids didn't get a penny. The legitimate kids got to sell his land that had tons of coal on it in Eastern KY, they made enough to take a Hawaiian vacation each year
Redshadowz, you arguments make no sense. By your logic, children who are abused should grow up and not abuse their own children, but that is clearly not the case. Making life difficult for a child does not make life easier for the child's child. Shaming the child serves no useful purpose. Back when it mattered in England for inheritance and titles, it might have had more purpose. Today, if your aim is to have fewer single mothers, it would make more sense to promote fully comprehensive sex education in schools and ease the availability of birth control. Only then can young men and women make intelligent, informed decisions. And if some people decide they want to have children outside of marriage, it will be their informed decision. More and more couples are deciding not to marry, but they still have children and are a family unit. Shaming these children is, well, childish and shameful.
I'm really talking about a social stigma.
Look at it like this. Someone who gets food stamps or unemployment, and makes no attempt to get a job, is not doing something that is by itself unethical, immoral, or unacceptable.
What is and what isn't acceptable is something that can only be defined by society itself. It is what society accepts as "good or bad". Not necessarily what is itself right and wrong.
Let me explain something coming from someone who has been on food stamps on and off throughout most of his life. The more someone criticizes someone who uses food stamps, especially someone who at least seems to be perfectly capable of working, the less likely that person will want to use his food stamps, and the more eager he will be to get off the food stamps.
I remember when I was young, we got the actual food stamps. The booklets of paper, and you would have to actually hand them to the cashiers. And it was actually pretty embarrassing for me to have to use them. Especially as I got older.
These days, I don't care whatsoever about using the EBT debit card. One main reason is that the social stigma attached to the food stamp card is largely gone. No one really cares much if you are using it, no one gives you weird stares. In some communities, basically everyone has food stamps, and you can talk about them without anyone thinking anything is weird.
What I'm saying is, the more you criticize something, the less there will be of it. The less you criticize something, the more there will be of it.
It doesn't seem realistic to believe that if you just ignore a problem, it will go away. No, you fix problems by bringing them into the light.
When it comes to marriage, and why there is so much less marriage today. It is caused by the fact that the social stigma that once surrounded things like having sex out of wedlock, or having children out of wedlock, are basically gone, or mostly gone.
Once you destroy the stigma, you change the incentives of the people involved.
What I'm saying is, if people were calling bastard children, bastards. It would create a social stigma against bastard children. If that were to happen, you would see a huge reduction in the number of bastard children.
It doesn't seem reasonable to believe anything else.
Anyone who brings a child into the world without both parents to raise them does far more harm to the child than any name society calls the child....Like it or not the labels used to be a deterrent to a couple who would be concerned about the consequences of their casual sex act.
I agree completely with Redshadowz. We NEED more social stigma in society today. And especially as our human population is growing and there are close to 7 billion human beings on this planet. With strong social stigmas, we'd need less hard rules or worry about thieves gaming our government help programs.
Social stigmas is what keep tradition-minded Chinese Americans from making baby mommas and collecting food stamps and welfare. All the older Chinese immigrants I know have never collected even unemployment benefits. And when one job doesn't pay the bills, they get a second job and without complaining. And btw they also would be the last to vote for raising the minimum wage levels because they accept the unskilled labour isn't worth as much as skilled labour jobs.
Social stigmas is why in Denmark, those collecting welfare from the state must also be out on the streets being street sweepers. And because of the shame in being a street sweeper, no one there stays on welfare for very long.
Turning to the government for handouts should only be as a last resort and as a temporary fix, not a lifelong lifestyle.
Not having children within a marriage is either a lack of family planning on the part of the couple, a woman trying to trap her man into staying around, or sadly the couple being pessimistic about having a life long loving relationship. And none of these situations should be encouraged or supported as it only furthers the cycle of poor parenting and lifestyles (I believe that all children should ideally be raised by two parents who are being good role models). We need to have the social stigma that it is shameful to make and raise children with welfare and food stamp help for their entire upbringing.
With our US national debt reaching 18 trillion dollars... we have to stop coddling the unproductive members of society here and abroad. And with 7 billion people on this planet, well human beings just aren't all that rare or precious a commodity. The wonderful lifeboat that is America is sinking fast...
Because it helps single moms feel better about the fact their baby daddies didn't value them enough to marry them.
Being off of work thru the holidays I watched some TV. I think it was Maury or one of those shows and on more than one occasion these women didn't have a clue who the "baby daddy" even was due to the amount of partners ... yeah, I'm thinking the name shouldn't be changed.
Maybe I missed it, because I skimmed some of the posts, but who exactly is taunting all these children with the word illegitimate? Are there grade school kids running around going "haha! you're illegitimate!" at other kids with unmarried parents. Somehow I doubt that...
According to your thinking, we are all the products of bastards. Did people marry 10 or 20 thousand years ago? Probably not, yet, fortunately for us, they did produce children.
Or, if you believe the Adam and Eve story, point out to us where the bible says they married.
Was the snake their witness? haha
Oh, wait ... I thought "Progressives" believed in human "progress?" Are you saying that now they believe in going backward?
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