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Old 06-29-2015, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Inyokern, CA
1,609 posts, read 1,077,192 times
Reputation: 549

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiBowlingGreenKY View Post
The question is, is it voluntary? For instance, if you go to a concert, a good portion of what you pay goes to the band. That money has NOT been "redistributed" in any economic sense. It is a voluntary transaction on both ends. The money that you pay for the enjoyment that you get. If 37% of what the band earns, that you voluntarily gave to them, is taken by the government and given back to you, that IS redistribution. If the band members give money to charity and that charity helps you, that is NOT redistribution. It's voluntary.
Good grief...you must be a lawyer educated in spin tactics. No, the $'s you spend for a concert ticket pays the band for their work, pays all the employees of the site holding the concert for their work, pays the owners of the site which will cover the expenses of keeping that site up and property taxes plus income to the owner(s) in payment for their investment. This IS NOT redistribution in the sense of taking from one and giving to another through a 3rd party.

Quote:
A market is also not a zero sum game. In anything resembling a free market, the pie itself is almost always growing. Bill Gates did not get rich by making other people poor.
Bill Gates got rich because he "took responsibility for himself" and used his "learned" (that's taking responsibility for one's self) expertise and worked his a$$ off to climb that ladder. Self responsibility has nothing to do with "making other people poor." In America, everyone has the opportunity Bill Gates used.

Quote:
Individual liberty and a market economy has changed life so much for so many that it's almost inconceivable. The poorest here would be middle or even upper class in other parts of the world. There are still hundreds of millions, if not over a billion, people existing on less than $1 a day. If your household brings in over $34,000 a year YOU are in that evil 1% on a worldwide basis. Yet all I hear is people complaining that the system that brought us to this level is somehow inherently evil and wrong because it doesn't give everyone everything they want.
On this we agree. The "complainers" should be thankful they live in America where, if they would take a little "responsibility for themselves" they would have a good life. The one thing, however, that we never hear when comparing income in America to that in 3rd-world countries is the comparison of cost of living. I have traveled to many countries around the world and have many friends in those countries. I find that the $1/day will buy a huge amount more than $1/day in America. People need to understand the correlation to have better understanding. Yes, those people do not have the level of living we do here, but in most cases they are not as badly off as it seems when comparing the purchasing power of a $ amount via our economic situation.

 
Old 06-29-2015, 08:37 AM
 
41,111 posts, read 25,666,932 times
Reputation: 13868
Quote:
Originally Posted by aus10 View Post
Because the rich guy gets rich because I have a job. The more he makes.. the more I make. What is the welfare mom going to do to create a job for me? I used to care about the interest of the nation as a whole....but after 35 years of busting butt to get ahead and seeing how the nation has pissed away my money, keeps legislating how I have to live and what products I have to or can purchase...... Personally.... I don't give a damn.
Would you define yourself as a liberal who grew up? No offense, just asking?
 
Old 06-29-2015, 08:43 AM
 
41,111 posts, read 25,666,932 times
Reputation: 13868
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorrysda View Post
Good grief...you must be a lawyer educated in spin tactics. No, the $'s you spend for a concert ticket pays the band for their work, pays all the employees of the site holding the concert for their work, pays the owners of the site which will cover the expenses of keeping that site up and property taxes plus income to the owner(s) in payment for their investment. This IS NOT redistribution in the sense of taking from one and giving to another through a 3rd party.



Bill Gates got rich because he "took responsibility for himself" and used his "learned" (that's taking responsibility for one's self) expertise and worked his a$$ off to climb that ladder. Self responsibility has nothing to do with "making other people poor." In America, everyone has the opportunity Bill Gates used.



On this we agree. The "complainers" should be thankful they live in America where, if they would take a little "responsibility for themselves" they would have a good life. The one thing, however, that we never hear when comparing income in America to that in 3rd-world countries is the comparison of cost of living. I have traveled to many countries around the world and have many friends in those countries. I find that the $1/day will buy a huge amount more than $1/day in America. People need to understand the correlation to have better understanding. Yes, those people do not have the level of living we do here, but in most cases they are not as badly off as it seems when comparing the purchasing power of a $ amount via our economic situation.
The American poor have a better standard of living than the average American did back in the early and middle part of the 1900's. It is because of capitalism that our standard of living got better. If we lived according to the liberal anti-capitalism mindset we would still be using horse and buggy, Kerosine lamps, fire pit to cook. It cracks me up when a leftie is condemns capitalism on "Facebook" or an "internet forum". They love the convenience and toys produced by capitalism yet claim to be anti-capitlisit.
 
Old 06-29-2015, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,792 posts, read 13,917,756 times
Reputation: 5661
Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
How about that... paying more than my share of taxes is for my own financial interest?
Ask the elite prior to the French Revolution if paying a little more in taxes to keep the poor fed, would have been worth not losing one's head.
 
Old 06-29-2015, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Just transplanted to FL from the N GA mountains
3,997 posts, read 4,131,511 times
Reputation: 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
Would you define yourself as a liberal who grew up? No offense, just asking?
Not really...... Always been more on the conservative side fiscally, but even more now...... but used to be a lot more socially liberal than I am now. I find it to be even more hypocritical than the right..... Is it possible to be a libertarian with a hard-core conservative financial outlook?
 
Old 06-29-2015, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,792 posts, read 13,917,756 times
Reputation: 5661
Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
The American poor have a better standard of living than the average American did back in the early and middle part of the 1900's. It is because of capitalism that our standard of living got better. If we lived according to the liberal anti-capitalism mindset we would still be using horse and buggy, Kerosine lamps, fire pit to cook. It cracks me up when a leftie is condemns capitalism on "Facebook" or an "internet forum". They love the convenience and toys produced by capitalism yet claim to be anti-capitlisit.
Liberals are not condemning capitalism. To say so is a strawman. We're just saying that the rich should pay more taxes so that we have a good safety net for those that fall through the cracks.

What I also notice in the above posts is the morphing into the belief, once again, that those that don't pay income taxes are "complainers" who don't work and are not "taking responsibility." ONCE AGAIN: most of those who do not pay federal income taxes WORK!
 
Old 06-29-2015, 08:53 AM
 
41,111 posts, read 25,666,932 times
Reputation: 13868
Quote:
Originally Posted by aus10 View Post
Because the rich guy gets rich because I have a job. The more he makes.. the more I make. What is the welfare mom going to do to create a job for me? I used to care about the interest of the nation as a whole....but after 35 years of busting butt to get ahead and seeing how the nation has pissed away my money, keeps legislating how I have to live and what products I have to or can purchase...... Personally.... I don't give a damn.
aus10, your post reminds me of a pharmacist I know, wooooe is me "he is constantly complaining" that he will never get to retire. Woe is me ... then in the next breath starts parroting the liberal propaganda and says he needs to pay higher taxes LOL.

Yea, keep supporting the government who wants to take more of your money
 
Old 06-29-2015, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Just transplanted to FL from the N GA mountains
3,997 posts, read 4,131,511 times
Reputation: 2677
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
Liberals are not condemning capitalism. To say so is a strawman. We're just saying that the rich should pay more taxes so that we have a good safety net for those that fall through the cracks.

What I also notice in the above posts is the morphing into the belief, once again, that those that don't pay income taxes are "complainers" who don't work and are not "taking responsibility." ONCE AGAIN: most of those who do not pay federal income taxes WORK!
I don't disagree with the fact that a lot work. (I have no idea of the percentage)..... but what about the EIC screams fair? The fact (and do not tell me it doesn't happen, because it happened to me 30 years ago one year, and in doing other's taxes I see it all the time!) that people can actually MAKE money. The net sum of the amount of taxes paid is less than the money "refunded." That does in fact make it that they pay ZERO in taxes. Yes... physically the money was "paid." But the money sure wasn't kept by the federal government. And if you can't admit that.... well.......
 
Old 06-29-2015, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Inyokern, CA
1,609 posts, read 1,077,192 times
Reputation: 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
First, consumption taxes are regressive by their nature. They reduce taxes for the wealthy, who consume less and tax lower income people, who spend all they earn.

Second, who cares how many pages are contained in the tax code? Most of it doesn't pertain to the vast majority and those who it does pertain have no trouble computing their taxes. Those provisions also perform a certain need.

Third, the middle class does very well with a progressive tax code and making it into a consumption tax is contrary to the interests of most taxpayers.
First, this "progressive" crap is just that! Crap spin! Wealthy people spend one he!! of a lot more on the very expensive items, many times just a couple of those items would cost more in consumption tax than what lower-income people pay for an entire year.

What you are saying is that you would rather have IRS tax income and be in a position to confiscate your home, car, property, clean out your bank account and even worse they can attach your retirement account(s) to name a few of their powers? And...they do this even when their claims of $'s you owe is wrong...I personally have friends to which this has happened and they were never able to recover what was stolen from them even after proving they were right.

Not, me! I want the Feds and States completely out of any income I make. They can get their tax share when I spend it. That does 2 things. 1) Frees all income to be used to give us a better economy which circulates more $'s and creates more business and jobs, 2) eliminates the need for all those earning income from where ever and what ever (as long as it's legal, of course) play the current games that government/IRS laws and regulations instigate for survival and 3) gives every citizen the ability to make their own decisions on how to spend their $'s and how much they can spend...they have total control instead of the government. There are a lot more advantages too numerous to list.

But, one thing I will make clear. This foolishness about "Corporate welfare" and corporations don't pay enough in taxes...that is a very stupid statement made by either manipulators or people who have no understanding of the business world. NO BUSINESS PAYS TAXES! PERIOD! All business writes off any and all expenses, including any tax they pay, which means all income tax paid by all business is added to the price of their service/product and passed on down to the final consumer which is anyone who buy/pays for that product or service. Think about this, when the steel maker ships their product whatever they pay in income taxes is added to the price, the transportation entity (rail, train, truck, air, etc.) adds their income tax to the price of transportation (2 taxes added), the business purchasing that steel for their product pays price of the steel/transportation and adds their income tax expense when selling their product (3 taxes added) and the consumer pays it all. Think about something the consumer buys that takes 100's of products to build such as a car. How many businesses income tax are passed down to you and included in the price of the car when you buy one.

BUSINESS DOES NOT PAY TAXES...YOU DO! Those same taxes will be passed down with each step of every product produced and with every service provided due to anything that service business has to have to provide the service, BUT, in the case of consumption tax instead of income tax, you, the consumer HAVE THE OPTION OF HOW MUCH YOU CAN SPEND! IMHO, and for myself, I want to be in control of my $'s and not have the government tell me how much (what % of my income) I HAVE to opay them! I think that is one of the biggest benefits of Consumption tax over Income Tax!
 
Old 06-29-2015, 09:09 AM
 
41,111 posts, read 25,666,932 times
Reputation: 13868
Quote:
Originally Posted by aus10 View Post
Not really...... Always been more on the conservative side fiscally, but even more now...... but used to be a lot more socially liberal than I am now. I find it to be even more hypocritical than the right..... Is it possible to be a libertarian with a hard-core conservative financial outlook?
Good question. I've been more conservative fiscally but for reasons I've seen around me. I didn't want to end up like those people. As for social issues, liberals love to tell me what I think but they are lying, it's all rhetoric to rile up the left extremist. Obama pushed me to the right. I'm also now very conservative fiscally. I have to be, I realize that no one is going to take care of me and my family, I got to do that myself. Too bad other people don't realize that government does not have their interest at heart.
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